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| | ::::''3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness, etc. | | ::::''3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness, etc. |
| | ::::Cite scripture for your response, not church tradition, church doctrine, Catholic catechism, or any other teaching of man. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 16:12, 30 October 2019 (EDT) | | ::::Cite scripture for your response, not church tradition, church doctrine, Catholic catechism, or any other teaching of man. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 16:12, 30 October 2019 (EDT) |
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| − | == Regenerative salvation by water and the Spirit: water baptism saves ==
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| − | Although I said above that I would not be heard again on this page, I thought it would be useful to the reader to have a summary of what the word of God says ([[Infant baptism|''see the article'']]):
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| − | *Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]
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| − | *Baptism saves you now. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Peter%203%3A21 1 Peter 3:21]
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| − | *Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 Matthew 28:19]
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| − | *This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A6 1 John 5:6]
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| − | *There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A8 1 John 5:8]
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| − | *Jesus saves us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Titus%203%3A5 Titus 3:5]
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| − | *With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews%2010%3A22 Hebrews 10:22]
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| − | *The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%205%3A26 Ephesians 5:26]
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| − | *Be baptized, and wash away your sins. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%2022%3A16 Acts 22:16]
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| − | *Be baptized. The promise of salvation is to you and to your children. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A38 Acts 2:38] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A39 and 2:39]
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| − | *Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A16 Luke 18:16]
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| − | *Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A17 Luke 18:17]
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| − | *God is not willing that any should perish. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Peter%203%3A9 2 Peter 3:9]
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| − | *We are buried with Christ in baptism, in which we are raised again through faith in the working of God, God making us alive together with him. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%202%3A12 Colossians 2:12] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%2012%3A13 and 2:13]
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| − | *To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2021%3A6 Revelation 21:6]
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| − | *A fountain springing up to eternal life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%204%3A14 John 4:14]
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| − | *Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A47 John 12:47][https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A48 12:48]
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| − | *He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%208%3A47 John 8:47]<br>''Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism saves us now, by water and the blood.''
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| − | *He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2013%3A13 Proverbs 13:13] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2028%3A9 and 28:9]
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| − | ''The word of the Lord. Thanks be to God.'' <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:25, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
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| − | :*''That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit]
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| − | :*''God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
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| − | :*''they that are in the flesh cannot please God.''
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| − | :Water baptism is of the flesh. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 18:50, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
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| − | ::No, it is not. It is of God. The Bible itself says that God the Holy Spirit baptizes through water. Christian baptism is not of the flesh. It was established by Jesus Himself as necessary to enter the kingdom of God. Christian water baptism is the work of God who baptizes ''with'' water and the Spirit together to regenerate life. It is not man who baptizes, and water alone devoid of the sanctifying Spirit of God is not Christian baptism. By the regeneration ('''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'') of baptism of water and the Spirit a person is enabled by the Spirit of God to worship God in spirit and in truth and given the [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%202%3A10 power to please God].
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| − | ::*[http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm Except a person be regenerated by water '''and''' the Spirit, a person cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5 "regenerated" '''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'' interlinear text] <br>from [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080 '''γεννάω''' ''gennao'' "procreate, regenerate"].
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| − | ::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%206%3A11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:11] <br> [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19].
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| − | ::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%2012%3A3 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13]
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| − | ::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Galatians%2012%3A3 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27]
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| − | ::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.] Romans 6:3-4.
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| − | ::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%202%3A5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, <nowiki>[God]</nowiki> made us alive together with Christ (by '''grace''' you have been saved). Ephesians 2:5]. <br> ([[Grace]] '''χάριτί''' ''[[charism|charity]]'' the "gift" bestowed by God on man is not a synonym for the [[faith]] '''πίστεως''' ''pisteos'' of man toward God. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians+2%3A8-10&version=KJV See Ephesians 2:8-10]. Compare <br> [http://biblehub.com/greek/5485 grace '''χάρις''' ''charis'' "grace, graciousness, especially the divine influence on the heart" given by God] and <br> [http://biblehub.com/greek/4102 faith '''ριστις''' ''pistis'' "persuasion, credence, conviction of truth, reliance on Christ for salvation, expressed by man.])
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| − | ::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.] Ephesians 4:5-6.
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| − | ::According to the Bible Christian Baptism is a divinely ordained union of the operation "of water and the Spirit" together in God by the blood of Christ [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%205%3A26 who alone sanctifies us, having cleansed us by the washing of water with the word]. Christian Baptism is not a water ritual empty of the Spirit and totally separated from the blood of Christ. Food itself is made holy by prayer [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Timothy%204%3A5 1 Timothy 4:5]. So [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Timothy%204%3A5 water is made holy with the word]. To speak of Christian Baptism as if it is merely a symbolic ritual of the flesh alone, utterly devoid of the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit Himself directly applying the saving blood of Christ to the soul through water, is not to speak of Christian Baptism at all.
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| − | ::"God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." True. God also is material flesh incarnate—"And you...he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven"–for "the word became flesh and dwelt among us", the Holy Spirit descended and remained upon him at baptism, and we have an altar from which those who serve the Jewish Tabernacle have no right to eat. (John 4:24; Colossians 1:21-23; John 1:14; Hebrews 13:10.) Baptism is indeed of the flesh of Jesus Christ the Incarnate Word made flesh who established the need for regenerative water baptism with lips and tongue of human flesh, whose word is the word of the Father in him speaking by lips and tongue of human flesh, speaking not on his own authority, but the Father dwelling in him does the work through the body of his flesh (John 3:3-5; John 14:10-12; Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 10:5-10). In the act of baptizing Christ baptizes, and it is God who does the work through baptism ''ex opere operato'', dwelling within us who perform the ordinary ministry of Christian baptism. The sacrament of baptism is not the empty symbolism of ritual washing with water alone, like the lustral bathing for ritual purification in the Jewish ''mikvah'', but unlike the rituals of Mosaic law, it is "of water and the Spirit" which regenerates to eternal life of the spirit and soul ('''''provided''''' they do not afterward fall away from confidence in the Lord [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews%203%3A14 Hebrews 3:14]—one of the scriptural passages along with Hebrews 6:4-8 and 2 Peter 3:17 that contradict the doctrine of irrevocable eternal assurance of salvation and warn that [[Eternal security (salvation)#Opposing arguments|the gift of eternal life can be lost, rescinded, revoked and forfeited by sin and apostasy]]).
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| − | ::The belief that God can not, does not, will not work his grace of salvation through the instrument of material water in union with the spiritual word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit is similar to the doctrine of [[Docetism]] which held that the purity of God the Word, the Son of the Father, could not personally defile himself by becoming incarnate human flesh, because of their doctrine that it is impossible that pure spirit can ever interact with impure matter, "having flesh and bones". His appearance was only a symbolic vision, not the personal reality of Himself, so that it was impossible that Jesus could really shed his blood, die on the cross, be dead, and actually rise from the dead. God has no need whatever for any material means of effecting salvation. John refuted this in the first words of his Gospel (John 1:1-18). Credobaptism absolutely denies, repudiates and condemns the claim that God ever would or ever could work salvation directly through any kind of proper material ministry of Christian Baptism by water and the Spirit, which he himself ordained in John 3:3-5 and Matthew 28:19-20 [[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|''ex opere operato'']]. God waits helplessly for man to open the door of his heart by faith so that the Lord might come in to him. The doctrine of salvation by faith alone is totally dependent on the willing cooperation of man who must first know and understand and believe before God can save him. Infants cannot do that. By this reasoning salvation by faith ''is'' a work of man, and baptism is not the cause of spiritual regeneration because it is only a legal [[ordinance]] of water without the power of the Spirit.
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| − | ::Consistently, ''on the basis of sacred scripture, and because of scripture'', the catholic and orthodox Christian Church east and west has condemned as a [[heresy]] the doctrine that baptism has no power from God, that Jesus did not establish the sacrament of baptism as the ordinary means of salvation by water and the Spirit, and that salvation is ''[[sola fide]]'' without any need for [[Corporal and spiritual works of mercy|works of mercy]], condemning also as a heresy the doctrine that eternal life once received by faith alone cannot be lost, rescinded, revoked, or forfeited by sin and [[apostasy]], the doctrine of [[Eternal security (salvation)|eternal security]].
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| − | ::This entire Talk page, and the debate represented on it by myself and RobS above, is to my thinking an excellent companion article to [[Infant baptism]]. RobS has vigorously argued and persistently defended the doctrine of credobaptism and salvation ''[[sola fide]]''. I count it a privilege to have contributed as clearly as possible without misrepresentation or distortion the Catholic doctrine of regenerative baptism unto everlasting life by the saving power of the blood of Jesus Christ alone, by reasoning based on the Bible. To all who read this page, thank you, and may God richly bless you and guide you into the fullness of truth. Amen. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 04:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
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| | ===Exodus chapter 33=== | | ===Exodus chapter 33=== |