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→Analysis: added Scriptural support of the analysis, with Points one, two and three of the analysis supported by scripture, with a conclusion sola scriptura
*While baptism qualifies a person for adoption into God's family, it is no guarantee; salvation still must be earned by good works, or at least the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of certain sins.
*While baptism qualifies a person for adoption into God's family, it is no guarantee; salvation still must be earned by good works, or at least the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of certain sins.
.[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 05:57, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
.[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 05:57, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
===Scriptural support of the analysis===
:*Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jn 3:5
:*He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mk 16:16
:*I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mt 16:18-19
:*Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. He 13:17
:*Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Ac 20:28
:*And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ep 4:11-16
:*For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Co 12:12-13
:*Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Co 12:27-38 (''The scriptures are not mentioned here and in Ephesians 4:11-16''.)
:*Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tm 2:15
:*And account the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of [[Antinomianism|lawless]] men and lose your own stability. 2 Pt 3:15-17
:*I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. Jn 15:1-6
:*For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are [[Schism|factious]] and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
:*You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
:*For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit [[apostasy]], since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. He 6:4-6
:*He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Mt 12:30-31
:*I any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 Jn 5:16-17
:*My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
:*I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. Jn 16:12-14
:*And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. Jn 14:16-17
:*Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Co 3:16-17
:*So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together nd grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ep 2:19-22
:*if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Tm 3:15
:*Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 Jn 2:18-29
:*If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refused to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
:*Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 Jn 9-11
====Point one of the analysis====
:'''Point one of the analysis'''. From the Bible itself we see that the Bible must be "rightly divided" and interpreted by the "leaders" and "guardians of the flock" so that we are not "carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles". In my youth 8-14 I sometimes asked my Baptist pastor to confirm what I thought I understood from my Bible reading because what I found in reading it surprised me and I wanted to check my conclusions from me reading of the Bible alone, and he corrected my errors of understanding, because there were other parts of the Bible I either hadn't read or had forgotten and had failed to take into account. More than the Bible alone was needed. That's why we have [[Sunday school]] teachers to guide and interpret the Bible for the children. From age 15-17 Pastor Archie Veltman, Southtown Baptist, Des Moines. Even ''[[sola scriptura]]'' Christians need more than the Bible alone. That's why pastoral guardians of the congregation are needed and appointed to preach doctrine to their flocks, ostensibly so they won't go astray as a result of their personal reading of the Bible. Paul's listings in Ephesians and 1 Corinthians do not mention the Bible as necessary for the upbuilding of the body of Christ. That's why we have need of "Bible lesson" materials, and seminaries of pastoral Bible training for future pastors and Christian educators. The overwhelming multitude of online Bible commentary sites and [[Christian apologetics]] sites by ''sola scriptura'' Bible Christians is proof that even they acknowledge that the Bible itself, by itself, is not solely authoritative. Still, the scriptures can be twisted (KJV "wrested") by unprincipled men to their destruction and the destruction of those who follow them 1 Pt 3:15-18.
:Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "The Bible, or Word of God, is not authoritative". Essentially a correct analysis of the argument. It is authoritative, even according to Catholic doctrine, but not by itself alone (The Cathechism of the Catholic Church CCC numbers 74-141). Whether Independent, Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic, the Bible is always interpreted by the differing Christian groups according to particular doctrinal principles not written in the Bible. For example, no text of the Bible says, "The Bible (Scripture) is the sole rule of faith for the man of God." It says rather that "the scriptures are useful / profitable". 2 Timothy 3:13-17
::"while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every '''good work'''."
:It does not say "the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith alone". <br>It does not say "All scripture is inspired by God as the sole rule of faith". <br>It does not say that faith alone is enough, but it says that the scriptures make us "equipped for every good work". "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ep 2:10
James says "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24. <br>Martin Luther contradicted this doctrine. He said James is a "strawy epistle" and that he found nothing of the Gospel in it, and removed it to an appendix of uninspired writings in his German Bible. <br> The Bible is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, but works are necessary, since a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. The Bible is authoritative, but not by itself alone.
====Point two of the analysis====
:'''Point two of the analysis.''' From the Bible we see that Christians are "baptized into the body of Christ" and that "just as the body is one and has many members, so it is with Christ"—"you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church" several ministries, among them the "guardians of the flock to feed the Church of God which he obtained with his own blood". The members of the Church are all "baptized into Christ", "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body". "If a man does not remain in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rv 20:15
:Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "Salvation is dependent upon church membership". The Bible supports that argument, as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone. But church membership is much broader than being legally listed on the church rolls of membership in a particular Christian congregation. According to Catholic doctrine all who are baptized by water and the Spirit with the word are members of the body of Christ, and united to the Catholic Church, even if imperfectly, without being aware of it (The Catechism of the Catholic Church, numbers 830-848). Membership in the body of Christ himself extends even beyond the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church, embracing all who have been baptized into his body "unwilling that any should perish" 2 Pt 3:9.
::"Hence they could not be saved who, '''knowing''' that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it...Those who, [[Invincible ignorance|through no fault of their own]], do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation" CCC 846, 847.
:And as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone, those who do not abide in the body of Christ are cast out and burned.
====Point three of the analysis====
'''Point three of the analysis.''' From the Bible we see that even if a person is baptized into the body of Christ and believes, subsequent loss of belief and falling away (παραπίπτω ''parapipto'' "apostasy") from Christ afterward will condemn them to hell (Hebrews 6:7-8; John 15:6), unless someone brings them back to repentance (James 5:19-20). "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone", "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." "For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rm 2:6 <br>We also see from the Bible in the words of Jesus himself "every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
:Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "While baptism qualifies a person for adoption into God's family, it is no guarantee; salvation still must be earned by good works, or at least the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of certain sins." The Bible supports this argument, as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone.
====conclusion: the analysis of the argument is supported ''sola scriptura''====
:Your analysis of the argument is a fairly accurate summary, with some minor provisions added for clarification. Every point set out as the essential argument in the analysis is found in the Bible <br> (a) Scripture is authoritative when properly interpreted <br> (b) Salvation is dependent on being united to Jesus Christ and abiding in the one body of his Church as a member of his body (c) Baptism unites the baptized to the body of Christ as a member, but without good works as the sustaining fruit of salvation the member bears no fruit and is lost (cast forth), and the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of unrepented sins and of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
:The Bible supports all of these points of the analysis. What remains is the question of whether or not to accept the analysis ''sola scriptura'', based on all of the scriptural support for it cited here. Use the principle of "Scripture interprets scripture" without disregarding any part of scripture cited here in support of the three points of analysis. <br> Jesus said to the lawyer (to an expert in the Law of Moses), "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" Lk 10:25-28 <br> He also said, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me; if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I speak on my own authority." Jn 7:16-17 <br>"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Mt 7:7-8 <br> "Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to '''repay every one for what he has done'''. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are those who '''wash their robes''', that they may have the '''right to the tree of life''' and that they may '''enter the city by the gates'''." Rv 22:11-14 <br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 14:00, 2 November 2019 (EDT)