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| − | == "Here I stand, I can do no more" — Sola scriptura response from the whole context of the Bible ==
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| − | ===There you stand — Sola scriptura response from the whole context of the Bible (''this is no spam'') — Bible scriptures opposed by all who reject Regenerative Baptism, Infant baptism, and the authority of the Catholic Church: ===
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| − | *Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "regenerated" '''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'' interlinear text] <br>from [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080 '''γεννάω''' ''gennao'' "procreate, regenerate"].[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]
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| − | *He who believes and is baptized will be '''saved'''; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
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| − | *Baptism '''saves''' you now. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Peter%203%3A21 1 Peter 3:21]
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| − | *This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A6 1 John 5:6]
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| − | *There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A8 1 John 5:8]
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| − | *Jesus '''saves''' us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Titus%203%3A5 Titus 3:5]
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| − | *Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 Matthew 28:19]
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| − | ::*This verse only applies to those who are ''born of God'' (or adopted inton his family); sorry, it doesn't apply to you which nullifies the rest of your argument. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | *With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews%2010%3A22 Hebrews 10:22]
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| − | *The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%205%3A26 Ephesians 5:26]
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| − | ::*This verse refutes your entire doctrine. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | *Be baptized, and wash away your sins. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%2022%3A16 Acts 22:16]
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| − | *Be baptized. The promise of '''salvation''' is to you and to your children. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A38 Acts 2:38] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A39 and 2:39]
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| − | *Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A16 Luke 18:16]
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| − | ::*This verse has nothing to do with baptism in any context. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | *Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A17 Luke 18:17]
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| − | ::*Where's your faith of a child? You replace it with doctrines of men. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | *Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
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| − | *God is not willing that any should perish. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Peter%203%3A9 2 Peter 3:9]
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| − | ::*Take this one to heart - it also speaks directly to those who preach a gospel of wrath and anathema. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | *We are buried with Christ '''in baptism''', in which we are raised again through faith in '''the working of God, God making us alive together with him'''. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%202%3A12 Colossians 2:12] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%2012%3A13 and 2:13]
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| − | *To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2021%3A6 Revelation 21:6]
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| − | ::*Hmmm, physical water or spiritual water? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | *A fountain springing up to eternal life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%204%3A14 John 4:14]
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| − | ::*Yah, the Word within you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | *For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%2012%3A3 1 Corinthians 12:13]
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| − | ::*Oh, so spirits chug down H<sub>2</sub>O. Didn't know that. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | *For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Galatians%2012%3A3 Galatians 3:27]
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| − | *[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.] Ephesians 4:5-6.
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| − | ::*And one gospel - a gospel of grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | *[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.] Romans 6:3-4.
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| − | ::*Yep. Once you are ''born again''. You don't need to be physically baptized. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | *even when we were '''dead''' through our trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by '''grace''' you have been '''saved'''). [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%202%3A5 Ephesians 2:5]. <br> ([[Grace]] '''χάριτί''' ''[[charism|charity]]'' the "gift" bestowed by God on man is not a synonym for the [[faith]] '''πίστεως''' ''pisteos'' of man toward God. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians+2%3A8-10&version=KJV See Ephesians 2:8-10]. Compare <br> [http://biblehub.com/greek/5485 grace '''χάρις''' ''charis'' "grace, graciousness, especially the divine influence on the heart" given by God] and <br> [http://biblehub.com/greek/4102 faith '''ριστις''' ''pistis'' "persuasion, credence, conviction of truth, reliance on Christ for '''salvation''', expressed by man.])
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| − | :::*Grace is not given by baptism. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | *And such were some of you. But you were '''washed''', you were '''sanctified''', you were '''justified''' in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%206%3A11 1 Corinthians 6:11] "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 Matthew 28:19].
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| − | *one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A5 Ephesians 4:5]–[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A6 6].
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| − | :*I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:18-19
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| − | :::*It means nothing if you reject God's grace for a doctrine of law and wrath. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Hebrews 13:17
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| − | :*Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Acts 20:28
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| − | :*And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16 <br>(''The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in 1 Corinthians 12:27-38''.)
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| − | :::*''speaking the truth in love'' is key here; a gospel of wrath does not speak the truth in love. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
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| − | :*Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-38 <br>(''The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in Ephesians 4:11-16''.)
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| − | :::*Right. Get baptized in the spirit and this will apply. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*I commend you because you remember me in everything and '''maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.''' 1 Corinthians 11:2
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| − | :*So then, brethren, '''stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word or by letter.''' 2 Thessalonians 2:15
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| − | ::*Wow! Where is the word "baptism" or "water baptism" in this verse? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
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| − | :::*Yep. Let's begin - ''That which is flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit. God is a spirit....These '''words''' that I speak unto you, they are '''spirit''', and they are '''life'''''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*And account the forbearance of our Lord as '''salvation'''. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of [[Antinomianism|lawless]] men and lose your own stability. 2 Peter 3:15-17
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| − | :::*It's clear what you are trying to say here. Go ahead, blame the Catholic Epistles of Paul for Protestantism. But who is ''rightly dividing the word of truth'' when Jesus (not Paul) said, ''That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit''. You yourself claim Catholic doctrine teaches that '''baptism is not of the flesh'''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Timothy 2:1-2 <br> (''often cited by many Churches as support for [[apostolic succession]]'')
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| − | :*I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6
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| − | :::*''Clean by the word''. Hmmm. It doesn't say "clean by baptism" or "clean by water." Kinda shoots holes in your whole argument. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are [[Schism|factious]] and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:6-11
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| − | :::*Go back and learn about grace and salvation '''before''' you preach on baptism. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*You see that a man is '''justified''' by '''works''' and '''not by faith alone.''' James 2:24
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| − | :::*''justified''. Justification is neither grace nor salvation. It comes as a result of salvation and obtaining God's grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit [[apostasy]], since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6
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| − | :::*Taste of the Lord and see that he is good''. Your entire rendition of scripture appears to be that you have yet to taste of the Lord. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Matthew 12:30-31
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| − | :::*Yep. And a gospel of wrath comes awfully close to blasphemy. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 John 5:16-17
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| − | :::*Like so many other verses you cite, if you are not baptized in the spirit, this verse is meaningless. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will '''save''' his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
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| − | :::*So, what is the difference between soul and spirit? And which is saved? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. '''When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth;''' for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16:12-14
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| − | :::*Yep. And the Spirit of truth comes when you are ''born of the spirit''. That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit. Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*And I will pray the Father, and he will give you '''another Counselor''', to be with you '''for ever''', even '''the Spirit of truth''', whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. John 14:16-17
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| − | :::*Now you are actually speaking of baptism. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, '''I am with you always, ''even'' unto the end of the world. Amen.''' Matthew 28:19-20
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| − | :::*See above. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
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| − | :::*So again, tell me the difference between soul and spirit. James spoke about saving a soul. Jesus spoke of being born of the spirit. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
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| − | :::*''[https://biblehub.com/daniel/4-17.htm the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. (Daniel 4:17)]. Is this the Catholic curia you're speaking of? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. 1 Peter 2:13
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| − | :*So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22
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| − | :*if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
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| − | :*Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:18-29
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| − | :::*How many years do I have to serve in [[Purgatory]] cause the work of Christ is insufficient to purge me of my sins? This is the doctrine of Antichrist. ''By their fruits ye shall know them''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; '''and if he refuses to listen even to the Church,''' let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:15-19
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| − | :::*Where do I begin with this one (which you quote so often)? How about this snippet: a tax collector is a collaborator with Roman authorities whom you are commanded to be subjection to. I think you are not ''rightly dividing the word of truth'' by not delivering proper context. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 John 9-11
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| − | :::*Amen. The Gospel of Grace, not the gospel of wrath. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*As for a man who is [[Schism|factious]], after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. Titus 3:10-11
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| − | :::*Jesus seems to have gone the extra mile for sinners. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, '''reject authority''', and revile the glorious ones. Jude 8
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| − | :*These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage. Jude 16
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| − | :*Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A47 John 12:47][https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A48 12:48]
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| − | :::*Ok, now you are finally get nearer to the Gospel of Grace and the meaning of salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%208%3A47 John 8:47]<br>''Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism '''saves''' us now, by water and the blood.''—this is the word of God.
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| − | :::*Hmmm. I cited Romans 10:9 at the top of this page; how come it is not the article yet? Perhaps you didn't hear the word of God? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Corinthians%2013%3A2 2 Corinthians 13:2]
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| − | :::*More wrath. Any grace in your preaching? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*There is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
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| − | :::*Wow. A promise to send me to hell if I resist your teaching. Thanks. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :*He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2013%3A13 Proverbs 13:13] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2028%3A9 and 28:9]
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| − | :::*Nuff said. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | *This is so tragic to witness, on the one hand a blessing is promised to those who hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matt 5:6), while on the hand Brother Dataclarifer is being so hard hearted and stiff-necked preaching wrath as a way to salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 15:33, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | ====Bring forth the scriptures that say "baptism cannot save"====
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| − | *Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "baptism does not '''save''', baptism cannot '''save'''". <br>Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "the Church does not '''save''', the Church cannot '''save'''", or that "membership in the Church does not '''save'''". <br>Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "membership in the Church eternally assures '''salvation'''" (which Catholic doctrine also rejects). <br>Bring forth here on this page ''Chapter and verse, with words "church", "membership", "baptism" (cannot, does not) "'''save'''", "'''salvation'''"''. <br>Show the Bible passage that explicitly says in any form "''born again by faith.''" <br> You can't. I know, because I looked, and tried to find it. "Baptism cannot save"—"The church cannot save"—"Born again by faith alone" (''babies who die have no faith''). It can't be found. It's not in the Bible. And if it's not in the Bible, the principle of ''sola scriptura'' refutes it totally. <br>So '''if you believe in salvation by faith alone you don't believe the Bible.''' It's as simple as that. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)<br>By the way — The Catholic Church ''does teach'' that the Church saves. CCC '''849''' "''The missionary mandate.'' “Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be '''‘the universal sacrament of salvation,’ the Church,''' in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men.” [''AG 7''; cf. ''Heb'' 11:6; ''1 Cor'' 9:6] (<small>''AG'' is the Vatican II document ''Ad Gentes''</small>) --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :You have clearly demonstrated repeatedly that you do not believe the Bible, because like the original [[Anabaptists]] you refuse to believe the whole context of all the scriptures cited here above and used by Protestants and Orthodox and Catholics against them to no avail. If you chop up this one as you did before and contradict even one of these Bible passages, you will prove your opposition to the Bible and [[enmity]] to the truth. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" John 17:17. <br> You will not hear from me again. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | ::Really? The bible says ''Blessed his he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.''<ref>https://biblehub.com/psalms/137-9.htm</ref> Do you believe that? Better yet, are you going to act on your faith and practice it? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:36, 7 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :::Dataclarifier, this is a very unreasonable request. I showed you Ephesians 2:8-9 which explicitly states that one is saved by faith and not by works (and I added that the Book of James says that true faith will have works).
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| − | :::Now in desperation you say: Bring forth the scriptures that say "baptism cannot save".
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| − | :::This is like saying bring forth the Scriptures that say singing songs at church cannot save. Bring forth the Scriptures that say a women having long hair cannot save. Show me the Scriptures that say praying consistently cannot save. This is not a reasonable approach to formulating sound doctrine. Formulating sound doctrine is best formed by using relevant verses that provide the most clarity and using proper [[Bible exegesis]]. [[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 21:45, 9 November 2019 (EST)
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| | ::Dataclarifier, Define [[El Shaddai]], and refute that babies have no faith. Or that ''the faith of child'' is not necessary to be saved. Or that ''the faith of Abraham'' is not necessary for salvation. | | ::Dataclarifier, Define [[El Shaddai]], and refute that babies have no faith. Or that ''the faith of child'' is not necessary to be saved. Or that ''the faith of Abraham'' is not necessary for salvation. |
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| | :::::::::::::::And if you think that sounds crazy, you are just exercising Pride - the original sin. ''God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.'' ''Ye must become as little children.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:59, 17 November 2019 (EST) | | :::::::::::::::And if you think that sounds crazy, you are just exercising Pride - the original sin. ''God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.'' ''Ye must become as little children.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:59, 17 November 2019 (EST) |
| | ::Praise God! You're getting baptized in the Spirit now! Today, if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts... [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 21:06, 17 November 2019 (EST) | | ::Praise God! You're getting baptized in the Spirit now! Today, if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts... [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 21:06, 17 November 2019 (EST) |
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| | ==Cruel doctrine== | | ==Cruel doctrine== |
| | A newborn infant cannot fulfill '''your requirement for salvation''' according to '''your own words''', <br> <big>"what is '''required for salvation'''. The answer is '''metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin'''."</big> <br> Your requirement of ''metanoia'' with ''a change of mind and heart'' and a '''conscious understanding''' of all these things "'''so simple a child can understand'''" condemns to hell and the lake of fire every uncomprehending baby that cannot understand and has died within an hour of birth, simply because it had no personal conscious faith in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior and did not understand and come to "'''''metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin'''''"—''what you say (in your own words) "is '''required for salvation'''"''. <br> The Catholic Church condemns such a monstrous doctrine of cruelty, the legalistic requiring of a helpless newborn what the child is utterly incompetent to do and cannot fulfill, and by holding to a false doctrine condemned as "antichrist" '''deliberately depriving them of the salvation of their souls by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit when they are infants and most at risk of death'''. <br>Whenever possible, since the first century, the Christian Church east and west baptizes by regeneration through water baptism all infants brought to the "laver of regeneration" because they were conceived in the original sin of Adam, since in Adam '''all die''', and '''death passed to all''', since '''all have sinned''', and there is '''none righteous, no not one'''. Infants are baptized by water and the Spirit '''''without your requirement of conscious understanding and metanoia and a change of heart and mind in their attitude toward God, sin and what God says about sin'''''. The Church freely baptizes the uncomprehending infant for salvation unto justification, freely, as an act of mercy commanded by the Lord himself (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:16) precisely '''because''' newborn infants and babies have no capacity for '''what you have said is required for salvation''', and simply because at this time in their lives they cannot personally resist or place any personal obstacle in the way of the grace of the sacrament "poured out upon" them. <br>In stark contrast to '''your requirement of metanoia, a change of mind and a change of heart in the newborn's attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin''', in stark contrast to that requirement, all the Church really requires is the simple act of "''the washing of water with the word''", which ''ex opere operato'' in the very doing of the act ordained by Christ saves them "''in virtue of his own mercy, by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we may be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life''" '''because Jesus himself said,''' "''Except one be regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God''". '''Ephesians 5:25-27; Titus 3:5; John 3:5'''. <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:06, 18 November 2019 (EST) | | A newborn infant cannot fulfill '''your requirement for salvation''' according to '''your own words''', <br> <big>"what is '''required for salvation'''. The answer is '''metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin'''."</big> <br> Your requirement of ''metanoia'' with ''a change of mind and heart'' and a '''conscious understanding''' of all these things "'''so simple a child can understand'''" condemns to hell and the lake of fire every uncomprehending baby that cannot understand and has died within an hour of birth, simply because it had no personal conscious faith in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior and did not understand and come to "'''''metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin'''''"—''what you say (in your own words) "is '''required for salvation'''"''. <br> The Catholic Church condemns such a monstrous doctrine of cruelty, the legalistic requiring of a helpless newborn what the child is utterly incompetent to do and cannot fulfill, and by holding to a false doctrine condemned as "antichrist" '''deliberately depriving them of the salvation of their souls by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit when they are infants and most at risk of death'''. <br>Whenever possible, since the first century, the Christian Church east and west baptizes by regeneration through water baptism all infants brought to the "laver of regeneration" because they were conceived in the original sin of Adam, since in Adam '''all die''', and '''death passed to all''', since '''all have sinned''', and there is '''none righteous, no not one'''. Infants are baptized by water and the Spirit '''''without your requirement of conscious understanding and metanoia and a change of heart and mind in their attitude toward God, sin and what God says about sin'''''. The Church freely baptizes the uncomprehending infant for salvation unto justification, freely, as an act of mercy commanded by the Lord himself (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:16) precisely '''because''' newborn infants and babies have no capacity for '''what you have said is required for salvation''', and simply because at this time in their lives they cannot personally resist or place any personal obstacle in the way of the grace of the sacrament "poured out upon" them. <br>In stark contrast to '''your requirement of metanoia, a change of mind and a change of heart in the newborn's attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin''', in stark contrast to that requirement, all the Church really requires is the simple act of "''the washing of water with the word''", which ''ex opere operato'' in the very doing of the act ordained by Christ saves them "''in virtue of his own mercy, by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we may be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life''" '''because Jesus himself said,''' "''Except one be regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God''". '''Ephesians 5:25-27; Titus 3:5; John 3:5'''. <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:06, 18 November 2019 (EST) |