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Talk:Examples of Bias in Wikipedia (view source)
Revision as of 12:49, January 21, 2008
, 12:49, January 21, 2008→Holy cow! Elkman blocked everyone who uses my IP range
::::::::::::: ''Of course'' it depends on the deity, and what he says. And yes, they did live in fear that they would end up as dinner (although it wasn't "whenever you meet a group from another people"), but that's the point: it didn't stop them. Telling them that there is a Golden Rule is not going to stop them. That's an arbitrary imposition on them, which they have no obligation to accept. But telling them that their actions are wrong ''according to the God who made them'' does give them an obligation to accept. Of course, you do have to convince them that what you are telling them is the truth, and having free will they can choose to accept or reject that standard, but there is a logical basis for accepting that standard. (And, of course, Christian missionary influence has led to the abolition of cannibalism in many places.) The Golden Rule was, of course, a rule given by that Creator. But if it wasn't, it's just another arbitrary rule that provides no logical basis (as distinct from a self-preserving one, in this case) for them to follow that rule. The point is, when it comes to right and wrong, the only absolute basis for it is the standards of the Creator. Because He is the Creator, He can set the rules. (The fact that people have the ability to reject those rules does not change this.) If there is no Creator, the rules are set by human beings according to their opinions. There is nothing ''intrinsic'' or ''inherent'' about an action that makes it right or wrong other than whether or not it conforms to the standard of ''the One who has the authority to set the rules''. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 06:18, 21 January 2008 (EST)
::::::::::::: ''Of course'' it depends on the deity, and what he says. And yes, they did live in fear that they would end up as dinner (although it wasn't "whenever you meet a group from another people"), but that's the point: it didn't stop them. Telling them that there is a Golden Rule is not going to stop them. That's an arbitrary imposition on them, which they have no obligation to accept. But telling them that their actions are wrong ''according to the God who made them'' does give them an obligation to accept. Of course, you do have to convince them that what you are telling them is the truth, and having free will they can choose to accept or reject that standard, but there is a logical basis for accepting that standard. (And, of course, Christian missionary influence has led to the abolition of cannibalism in many places.) The Golden Rule was, of course, a rule given by that Creator. But if it wasn't, it's just another arbitrary rule that provides no logical basis (as distinct from a self-preserving one, in this case) for them to follow that rule. The point is, when it comes to right and wrong, the only absolute basis for it is the standards of the Creator. Because He is the Creator, He can set the rules. (The fact that people have the ability to reject those rules does not change this.) If there is no Creator, the rules are set by human beings according to their opinions. There is nothing ''intrinsic'' or ''inherent'' about an action that makes it right or wrong other than whether or not it conforms to the standard of ''the One who has the authority to set the rules''. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 06:18, 21 January 2008 (EST)
::::::::::::::The alternative though, Philip, is that man created God in his image and wrote the rules up according to beliefs that society has built up. Some of them for good evolutionary reasons such as look after your family/tribe members; others for power. Through centuries of social and religious development, these rules become inherent in society, e.g. it's bad to kill, steal, etc. While a prehistoric man might not have any moral compunction not to kill a competing male for resources and is therefore amoral by our standards, that same man transported and brought up in our society would be indoctrinated into our rules, either by convention or law. Claiming that man has morals and the only source of them must be God is, in my humble opinion, one of the weakest "proofs of God's existence" arguments. After all, did the tribe of Israel go around murdering and raping each other before the Ten Commandments? Of course not. They wouldn't have got very far if they did. [[User:Ajkgordon|Ajkgordon]] 07:34, 21 January 2008 (EST)
::::::::::::::The alternative though, Philip, is that man created God in his image and wrote the rules up according to beliefs that society has built up. Some of them for good evolutionary reasons such as look after your family/tribe members; others for power. Through centuries of social and religious development, these rules become inherent in society, e.g. it's bad to kill, steal, etc. While a prehistoric man might not have any moral compunction not to kill a competing male for resources and is therefore amoral by our standards, that same man transported and brought up in our society would be indoctrinated into our rules, either by convention or law. Claiming that man has morals and the only source of them must be God is, in my humble opinion, one of the weakest "proofs of God's existence" arguments. After all, did the tribe of Israel go around murdering and raping each other before the Ten Commandments? Of course not. They wouldn't have got very far if they did. [[User:Ajkgordon|Ajkgordon]] 07:34, 21 January 2008 (EST)
:::::::::::::So, you could ask what didn't stop them? What didn't stop them was culture, theistic beliefs, and peer pressure. And as you admit, they did live in fear, so at least you have something in common with them, and that is a basis to come to an understanding. If I understand you correctly, rather than to appeal to something they share with you, your advice is to have them first accept your version of how the world came to be, something that is probably alien and strange to them. It appears to me that trying to make them accept the story of a talking snake is not exactly the the best first move, I see two other more fundamental problems with your reasoning, moral problems.
::::::::::::: First, you admit that there are no intrinsic values. All value are externally derived from your deity. This means that morality now becomes dependent on how you interpret what a deity might have said or intended. However, we do not generally accept it if someone commits an immoral act, and defends himself by pointing to his deity. We rightfully hold the person itself responsible for its acts. You undermine free will, because you give people the option to claim that they just misunderstood the deity. And we have proof that people understand the same deity differently, now, and through history. In the end even you cannot escape that an individual makes the choice in the end for his actions, and the existence of a deity doesn't change this.
::::::::::::: Second, you will have to live together with people who do not share your beliefs about the origin of the world. It seems like you gave up on convincing others to live in peace with you, unless they accept your version of history. This is frankly a recipe for disaster. Regardless of whether your version is correct, you should be able to come to an agreement with people you disagree with. And the golden rule has been proven to be acceptable to humans of all backgrounds and convictions.
:::::::::::: Finally, and we touched on this subject before. It appears that you only treat people morally because of your relation with your creator, and not because of your relation with those other people. I in contrast think that people should follow the golden rule because they care about themselves and other people around them, and not because of fear for some deity that might not might not exist. We know that those other people exist, and we know that we care about them and ourselves. I see nothing wrong with the golden rule. And it is certainly not arbitrary. If the creator would change this rule, people should still live by it.
::::::::::::But to end on a positive note, least we agreed that you think that there are no intrinsic values. [[User:Order|Order]] 07:49, 21 January 2008 (EST)
:Um, dude. ''You blocked yourself for your actions.'' That's like a deputy locking himself up with the jail key for shooting a roomful of innocent people to catch a suspected jaywalker. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:22, 31 December 2007 (EST)
:Um, dude. ''You blocked yourself for your actions.'' That's like a deputy locking himself up with the jail key for shooting a roomful of innocent people to catch a suspected jaywalker. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:22, 31 December 2007 (EST)