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User talk:JZambrano/WhyILeftWikipedia (view source)
Revision as of 23:54, July 27, 2012
, 23:54, July 27, 2012→"Consensus": new section
And when I'd quote from the guidelines (NPOV, WP:BLP, Notability, Wikipedia:DRNC, Wikipedia:CCC, WP:Lead Section, Wikipedia:Fringe) to prove them wrong and show they were misinterpreting the rules, or use heavy sourcing to show indisputably the proposed material had more than enough prominence and relevance (since by Wikipedia standards you're just supposed to "follow the sources" and faithfully report what major news sources say), they'd just have the discussions closed, and then claim "edit warring" if you'd try to restore the conversations. They just claim "Consensus" for this even though examination of talk page history shows numerous people supported mention of Obama's controversies, and were silenced or ignored repeatedly in the same manner. What they do there is really dishonest. I have more respect for people if they're at least blunt and straightforward about their biases and opinions, than if they try to pretend they are objective while being hypocrites. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 19:34, 27 July 2012 (EDT)
And when I'd quote from the guidelines (NPOV, WP:BLP, Notability, Wikipedia:DRNC, Wikipedia:CCC, WP:Lead Section, Wikipedia:Fringe) to prove them wrong and show they were misinterpreting the rules, or use heavy sourcing to show indisputably the proposed material had more than enough prominence and relevance (since by Wikipedia standards you're just supposed to "follow the sources" and faithfully report what major news sources say), they'd just have the discussions closed, and then claim "edit warring" if you'd try to restore the conversations. They just claim "Consensus" for this even though examination of talk page history shows numerous people supported mention of Obama's controversies, and were silenced or ignored repeatedly in the same manner. What they do there is really dishonest. I have more respect for people if they're at least blunt and straightforward about their biases and opinions, than if they try to pretend they are objective while being hypocrites. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Joshua Zambrano]] 19:34, 27 July 2012 (EDT)
== "Consensus" ==
In the last discussion in Archive 67, I pointed out that numerous users had called for mention of various controversies in the past on the Talk Obama page, and been ignored:
Source: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_67 Archive 67]
:"The bottom line is this:
:* From 2005-2008 on this article either the controversy over Obama's present votes was mentioned in the State Legislature section[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&oldid=188267725] or Keyes' criticism of him about abortion was mentioned in the Senate Campaign-General section.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&oldid=24427341] Not until 2008 was this information, which previously had not undergone opposition, suddenly removed.
:* At least one dozen different Wikipedia articles already reference the controversy ([[Political positions of Barack Obama]], [[Barack Obama social policy]], [[United States Senate career of Barack Obama]], [[The Case Against Barack Obama]], [[Comparison of United States presidential candidates, 2008]], [[Alan Keyes]], [[William R. Haine]], [[Jill Stanek]], [[James Dobson]], [[Nat Hentoff]], [[Gianna Jessen]], and [[The Committee for Truth in Politics]]).
:* The controversy has been covered in the media by such prominent organizations as CBS,[http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/17/politics/main2369157.shtml] the Chicago Tribune,[http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2008/aug/21/local/chi-zorn_21aug21] the Washington Post,[http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/10/is_obama_guilty_of_infanticide.html] the Wall Street Journal,[http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110009664] the National Review,[http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=N2NmMGNkMTdkZWJkZWRkMjRkNjY5NjllNzZlYjkyNmY=] FactCheck.org,[http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html] Time Magazine,[http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1849483,00.html] ABC News,[http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/07/obama-abortion-.html] FOX News,[http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Jan24/0,4670,PresentVotesFactCheck,00.html] Newsweek,[http://www.newsweek.com/id/155560/page/4] the New York Times,[http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/us/politics/20checkpoint.html?scp=1&sq=obama%20abortion%20born%20alive&st=cse], and the National Right to Life Committee (NRLC).[http://www.nrlc.org/ObamaBaipa/Obamacoveruponbornalive.htm]
:* The bill Obama voted against was the Illinois version of the [[Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act]] that became the most prominent abortion-related bill in decades, and as an act of government behind only Roe v. Wade in prominence here in the United States. The bill outlawed the practice of intact dilation and extraction in which children are killed while being delivered and in some cases survive only to be left to die - which fact played a key role in the testimony and ultimate Congressional decision.[http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/abortion/2003s3.html] Obama was the only Illinois state senator to speak out against the bill on the senate floor, but for years would mis-represent his vote until his campaign was finally forced to concede the lies.[http://www.nysun.com/national/obama-facing-attacks-from-all-sides-over-abortion/84059/]
:I simply do not understand how you can objectively deny that this is either not prominent or poorly sourced. You can keep calling it rhetoric all you want, but objectively, any controversy surrounding a public figure that has this sort of evidence and sourcing ought to be referenced prominently on their main Wikipedia article. The fact that you are still so adamantly opposing it does not speak well for your impartiality. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Jzyehoshua]] ([[User talk:Jzyehoshua|talk]]) 18:34, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
:I will however say this: I noticed the Rezko controversy is at least now mentioned in the article. I don't remember it being there before, was that added recently? I am only on archive page 10 so far, and already have found at least 20 different users who complained because for a long time it was just mentioned as a footnote (#139 as of July 2007) with all the info and sources for it hidden down in the footnote. That had a LOT of people complaining.
:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_3#Sentence_in_lede.3F][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_6#Rezko_real_estate_deal][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_8#Antoin_Rezko_real_estate][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_8#No_controversies.3F_Cmon_guys.21.21][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_8#Rezko][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_8#The_INFAMOUS_Rezko_land_deal][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_8#Request_for_Comment][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_8#More_Rezko][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_9#Rezko_house][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_9#Drip_Drip_Drip][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_9#Content_disputes][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_9#No_Criticism_Section.3F.21][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_9#Problem_paragraph.3F][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_10#Rezko_resurrection] ::::::::Again, those are just from the first 10 archive pages, and if they're any indication, this is easily one of the most controversial pages on Wikipedia. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Jzyehoshua]] ([[User talk:Jzyehoshua|talk]]) 15:58, 1 January 2010 (UTC)"
:"Well, if only to show there has been a lot of discussion on the issue of what controversies to include (despite some still continuing to claim there are no controversies), I think the discussion is useful. For example, as recently as May 2008,[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&oldid=210637343] the article did contain information about Obama's controversial present abortion votes, his Reverend Wright association, and opposition by 18 pro-life groups to his interview with Rick Warren that have now been excluded from the article. Starting in May 2008 with the removal of mention of his controversial abortion votes, and ending in mid November 2008, all evidence of these controversies had been removed.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&oldid=252526279] I found evidence that as early as April 2008 [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] was attempting to remove mentions of the Wright and Rezko controversies from the page.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_15#Rezko_and_Wright][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_15#Featured_Article_Review_consensus:_This_is_a_hagiography] I also found there evidence a user named [[User:Thegoodlocust|TheGoodLocust]] had supported a similar addition to mine about Emil Jones making Obama a U.S. senator through appointing him head over key legislation, but [[User:Ubiq|Ubiq]] wanted it watered down so it did not mention his legislative record had been built in one year. Another user, [[User:Grsz11|Grsz11]], also denied the need for mentioning that vital fact, but at least remained relatively civil and reasonable during the conversation.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_15#Reverts_on_Illinois_Senate] Scjessey again attempted removal of controversies, asserting they violated Wikipedia guidelines on BLP, WEIGHT, NPOV, and RECENT, and that he had overwhelming consensus. Here, him and user called [[User:Andyvphil|Andyvphil]] and [[User:Kossack4Truth|Kossack4Truth]]locked horns over the subject.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_16#Kossack.27s_expanded_version_of_Wright][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_16#Kossack_puts_in_more_Wright_and_Rezko_again] As a result of Scjessey working with an admin named [[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] it appears the tables began turning in April against mention of controversies.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_16#Time_for_mediation.3F] I am only looking at April 2008 and expect the further months will reveal much more about who else was involved here.
:It should be pointed out that from 2004-2008, the following users had supported mention of the present votes on abortion bills in the article:
:*[[User:J8427]] July 2006, Archive 2[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_2#Illinois_state_bills]
:*[[User:Bobblehead]] April 2007, Archive 8[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_8#Born_alive_bills]
:*[[User:Dce7]] April 2007, Archive 8[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_8#Born_alive_bills]
:*[[User:Pic82101]] April 2007, Archive 8[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_8#Born_alive_bills]
:*[[User:HailFire]] March 2007, Archive 8[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_8#Voting_.22present.22_as_Illinois_state_senator]
:*[[User:jpgordon]] March 2007, Archive 8[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_8#Voting_.22present.22_as_Illinois_state_senator] (supported if sourced reliably)
:*[[User:Ernham]] March 2007, Archive 8[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_8#Voting_.22present.22_as_Illinois_state_senator]
:*[[User:8.11.254.188]] March 2007, Archive 8[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_10#.22Present.22_Votes]
:Sometime in May 2008 the edit was removed. Why I don't yet know. --[[User:Jzyehoshua|Jzyehoshua]] ([[User talk:Jzyehoshua|talk]]) 00:31, 2 January 2010 (UTC)