Talk:Abortion facts

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Citation for "murder"

Since asking for a citation on the page is a bannable offense, I'll ask for it here. Can we have a source conclusively showing that abortion is in fact murder, the crime of unlawfully taking a human's life with prior intent? Barikada 01:35, 24 January 2008 (EST)

I'm not sure what you would define as "conclusively showing".
Also, despite the link to murder and that article defining it as unlawful killing, "murder" can also be defined as the taking of an innocent human life (as distinct from, for example, executing a criminal). By that definition, it doesn't have to be shown that abortion is illegal to classify it as murder.
In any case, in some places abortion is illegal, so that would make it murder even by the "unlawfal killing" definition.
Philip J. Rayment 04:35, 24 January 2008 (EST)
Abortion is not always a crime. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 09:30, 24 January 2008 (EST)
Who said murder == crime? SW♠·♥·♣ 09:37, 24 January 2008 (EST)
As I indicated above, our article on murder does. Philip J. Rayment 14:58, 24 January 2008 (EST)
I don't think I understand what you all were debating about, but I tried to help. Forgive me if it didn't help that much... oops, I didn't see that one of his links was to a liberal site. Sorry!-MexMax 09:48, 24 January 2008 (EST)
Wouldn't the attribution guidelines tell us to say "conservatives believe that abortion is murder", in the same way we say "evolutionists believe the earth is 4.59Gy old?". People can disagree with the line "abortion is murder", so by definition it is opinion and shouldn't be in a factual encyclopedia; nobody can disagree with "conservatives believe that abortion is murder", and it is therefore a fact, and encyclopedia-worthy. HelpJazz 11:25, 24 January 2008 (EST)
In most of the cases it is truth but not always. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 13:22, 24 January 2008 (EST)
Yeah, I'd be cool with that. Less so about use of the term "Evolutionist", but that's another argument for another day. Barikada 15:38, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Before concluding that abortion is in fact murder, one must define life. This is of course a common issue when discussing abortion, and I'm sure you are familiar with it. For some the answer is simple: when sexual reproduction has successfully taken place and pregnancy initiated, life is present. There is a problem with this definition, however. Does a collection of stem cells really have feelings? It certainly has no consciousness, and no nervous system, which means that it cannot think or use any sense perception. It has, in other words no experience of life, and therefore it is not alive. A teratoma is also a collection of stem cells present in a human body, but I have never heard of anyone considering a teratoma to be alive. So, administrators of conservapedia, how do you define life? If you cannot give a plausible definition I strongly suggest the removal of the definition of abortion as a cause of death. -SeanWalter 20:37 18 March 2007 (SE)

If you can prove that what's being aborted is not a human baby, then we'll remove it. Karajou 15:48, 18 March 2008 (EDT)
In a sense, that is what he just did. However, his reasoning is dependent on his assumption that life is defined by the thing having an "experience of life". What he hasn't done is explain why that should be the defining factor. Philip J. Rayment 21:50, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Ten arguments

I'm not sure that the recent addition of a list of ten arguments is all that encyclopaedic, and some of the reasons themselves are a bit shaky. The first part of No. 5 doesn't even make sense to me. Nos. 1 and 2, as worded, make no distinction between abortion and capital punishment, a self-defence killing, etc. They are poorly worded. For No. 3, I don't think it's fair to say that adoption achieves the same result, although similar might be okay. Philip J. Rayment 23:02, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

Problems with most of "ten reasons against abortion"

  • 1-2: Both these reasons accept the statement "humanity begins at conception" as an undisputed fact. Because it is disputed, you must prove it before using it.
  • 3: Just because adoption works, abortion is not necessarily bad, what if a woman simply did not want to go through childbirth?
  • 4: Even if abortion does have some negative health effects, it does not mean it should be illegal. We allow alcohol despite negative health effects.
  • 6: This is an opinion, not a fact.
  • 7: Women already can have control over their bodies through birth control and abstinence.
  • 8: Many Americans oppose the Iraq War. Does that make funding it with tax dollars immoral?

BlinkadyblinkRAGE 23:24, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

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