Talk:Niccolò Machiavelli

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Part of this article was copied from Citizendium and Wikipedia but the copied text was originally written by me, RJJensen (under the name Richard Jensen and rjensen) and does not include alterations made by others on that site.

RJJensen 06:53, 14 February 2009 (EST)

Influence on Conservatives?

Machiavelli has had ZERO influence on conservatives, or the Founding Fathers, or anything else of great value. Zilch. The reference given is to "Pocock", but it should be to poppycock. This revisionism of someone felt for centuries to be inspired by the devil cannot last here. I wouldn't put it on Citizendium either! Godspeed.--Andy Schlafly 23:04, 20 March 2009 (EDT)

I'm not sure where you get this idea that he had zero influence from. Francis Bacon, the catalyst of the scientific revolution, was deeply fond of Machiavelli's Prince and Discourses on Livy, based his entire approach to the writing and study of history upon the Machiavellian approach, and noted, "We are much beholden to Machiavel and others, that write what men do, and not what they ought to do." The Discourses had wide impact throughout the centuries on republican thinking, though I can't speak to his influence on the founding fathers, being a British, and not American historian. PaulAuber 01:18, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

Yes Paul is right. The Discourses are cited and reprinted to this day by conservatives. Some argue that The prince is a warning what it's like to have a king who is sovereign as opposed to the much better system that Machiavelli supported of a republic. Better look at Pocock (a cnservative--he and I used to have adjoining offices in the the 1960s) or the dozens of other scholarly studies. Willmore Kendall for example wrote about what was "truly admirable in Machiavelli" (the Discources), which are not at all "Machiavellian" (in the Prince-sense). M. warns that "Principality easily becomes Tyranny." Conservative historian Paul Rahe has an entire book on Machiavelli's Liberal Republican Legacy Another leading conservative using Machiavelli is Harvey C. Mansfield of Harvard. RJJensen 01:52, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

So his influence, I am to infer that his influence, on conservatives, is mainly that they used him to explain his influence on liberal Republicans? It has been a long day, Richard! --₮K_/Admin^/Talk 03:01, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

"liberal" in the 19th century sense, which is like libertarianism today. The influence on 2009 conservatives was this: Machiavelli's ideas on civic duty and opposition to corruption are deply engrained in America thanks to the idea of republicanism. It's a political philosophy after which the GOP names itself. Jefferson also called his party the "Republican" (or Democratic-Republican) party. RepublicISM means fears of tyranny, fear of corruption, distrust of politicians, and the need to be an active citizen, esp bear arms in wartime and vote in elections. We all share that today and (to a large degree) it comes from Machiavelli (and others too, but he was very important). This "republican" line of Machiavelli's thought is totally different from his line of thought in "The Prince" which advocates tyranny--he argued both black and white! RJJensen 03:39, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

Sounds as if he would today be one of the highest ranking members of Congress......as the prerequisite is being able to argue both sides, while talking out of both sides of your mouth. --₮K_/Admin^/Talk 05:15, 21 March 2009 (EDT)