Debate: Communism

This is a debate page solely to discuss communism, at the insistence of the individual calling himself "MarxistLeninist".

• Rules:

The debate will be civil.

Individuals debating will not be blocked from doing so.

IP addresses will be blocked if they are determined to be proxies.

Enver Hoxxa is not authorized as part of the discussion. Karajou (talk) 02:07, 16 July 2019 (EDT)

Debate starts here

Since the original user's history has been entirely wiped out, what exactly were they asking to be debated? Was it yet another Marxism vs Capitalism debate? Was it a debate about something specific on one or more pages? Was it the superiority of his wiki vs ours?

As to communism and moreso communists themselves, the debate is not usually worth having. They can't even be honest about communism's existence wherever it has existed - both pre or post Marx. Bring up Venezuela? That wasn't real communism. USSR? That was just a dictatorship, not communism. They will scream bloody murder that communism has never been tried even though it has been tried dozens, if not hundreds of times. I am all up for a debate but when you have a co-debater who keeps clearing facts off of the table in order to cheat in the debate and give themselves a tactical advantage, debate becomes impossible courtesy of the cheater. Debates require facts, especially the inconvenient ones.

As Benjamin Constant explains[1] in his The Liberty of Ancients Compared with that of Moderns,[2] the "liberty" of the ancients consists of a collective "liberty", that is, government granted rights. One of the biggest flaws of any of these "isms" from Europe is that they all believe that government is the pinnacle of existence. Communists like to play that their ideas are some of the newest on the planet, when in reality all Marx did was re-package the flaws of the ancients into a new box with new wrapping paper. Reagan was correct when he said: "This idea that government is beholden to the people, that it has no other source of power except to sovereign people, is still the newest and most unique idea in all the long history of man's relation to man." That's because the basis of Communism is not the individualist Liberty of the Moderns, communism is based on the collectivist "liberty" of the ancients. Progressingamerica (talk) 06:54, 16 July 2019 (EDT)

My question is pretty simple for this ML guy, should he return: What makes you think that an ideology that has to control 80% or more of an individual's existence a good thing, up to and including stuffing someone into a gulag for not toeing the commie party line? Karajou (talk) 07:09, 16 July 2019 (EDT)

ML is in serious denial that that even happened. For example, he is very much in denial of Holodomor, and cites that infamous Canadian Communist Douglas Tottle, who's book he referred to was discredited soon after it came out, as noted on this very website here: [3] People who have sympathies with the Soviet Union have been trying to cover this up for a long time, but I submit these: [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] I concur with Progressingamerica's comment earlier of "They can't even be honest about communism's existence wherever it has existed" and denials and attempted coverups of Holodomor have been attempted since it originally happened. Shobson20 (talk) 09:45, 16 July 2019 (EDT)

Since ML cited Tottle's book, I will submit "Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine" by Anne Applebaum. Shobson20 (talk) 09:53, 16 July 2019 (EDT)