Difference between revisions of "Talk:Music"

Revision as of 16:11, May 4, 2008

Classical v. Popular Music

What is classical music? What is popular music? What were they used for?

Bring citations and examples here for consideration.--TerryH 07:53, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

The article seems to imply that "tame" music unlikely to cause riots is more moral than more raucous music. While it is obvious that music has a great deal of emotional content that affects one's moral behavior, I'm not sure if we want to implicitly support "tame" music over "wild music", so perhaps the last paragraph could be rephrased. ColemanFrancis 01:31, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Hi, there. Good question, and I'll give you a straight answer, from one music lover to another.

We both agree that music has what each of us would call "emotional content." If you saw my footnotes, you'll see that I found one to substantiate my statement that music does more than reflect emotions; it induces them.

I also have heard story after story, taken from the police blotter and also making it to the front page, about rock-and-roll events that end badly. This is not necessarily true of every such event. But the last time we heard of a riot starting at a "classical" concert was the premiere of Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Srping. I never heard, for example, of Eugene Ormandy or Leopold Stokowski starting any riots with any of their concerts.

So now we have to ask ourselves: How and why do certain genres of music cause riots? Do they truly cause the riots, or might they make the atmosphere conducive to riots? Or--is the "wild" music part of a subculture whose members characteristically abandon self-control on certain occasions--such as when they are "getting into" certain music that they know will drive them wild?

And ask yourself this while we're thinking of re-phrasing that paragraph you mentioned: why do the lives of so many of the performers and composers of such music often end badly? In fact, that seems to be a part of rock-and-roll that its artists and listeners brag about. I recall a motion picture that was all about a young rock-and-roll bandleader who drove his car off a bridge into a creek, while he was working on a rock-and-roll version of the Faust story. Maybe you remember the title: Eddie and the Cruisers.

Hm-m-m-m. Lots of Eddies out there, or so it seems to me. Think maybe their music has something to do with it? Not so much one exposure as a steady diet, day after day after day? Or as a doctor might say, not an acute effect but a chronic one?

Before this day is out, I'm going to take another look at that paragraph and think about a rewrite. But I'd like you to think about it, too, and to think about what I said above, in deciding how you would advise me.--TerryH^Talk 10:50, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Excellent points. It's fairly obvious that music can induce different emotional reactions. However, I will suggest that riots at classical concerts were far more commonplace in the past than they are today (any biography on Liszt or Paganini will describe the madhouse-like atmosphere at their concerts, where women would literally rush up to the stage and try to grab a lock of hair or some other memento from the performer). One could argue that this became less commonplace as classical music became more of a mark of "high culture" (there's a reason why people don't riot when "The Rite of Spring" is played nowadays). In addition, I would caution against the use of the word "sedate": the vast majority of pop music these days is pretty sedate, while most classical (assuming a decent performance) is not. Obviously there's a reason why classical concerts are much less likely to start riots, and I'm not trying to discount the role of music in influencing human behavior, but I think much of the different sets of behavior corresponding to different sets of music comes from cultural expectation of a particular genre, and general differences in musical taste, which should be accounted for in the article. I'm sure many of these rioters have more in common than what music they listen to. ColemanFrancis 17:22, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for writing back. You can see how I have modified the last section--and in fact, I found a way to quote Mark Twain, by way of suggesting how he might have taken the music controversy. Not to say that he was right; only to suggest what sort of position he might have agreed with.

I'll be going out-of-Internet-reach this weekend. But if I might suggest, you made an interesting statement about Franz Liszt having to deal with "groupies" in his day--and I suspect that Mozart had the same problem. Maybe we ought to start with those two composers, or someone's going to ask for a citation.--TerryH^Talk 18:06, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

This is far too European in view. It does not take account of music outside of European and Judeo-Christian societies, such as Chinese music, native meso, south and north American music, African music, etcetera. Please amend. I think you should also consider looking at the role of folk music in societies. It is not purely for personal enjoyment, but as a way of venting and expressing frustrations and grievances. Popular music is also a contributor to folk music, and takes much from folk music from around the world. Blues is southern black folk, and blues is the root of rock and most other modern musical genres. Classical music is also not the be all and end all in music, and it does not make you a more moral person if you listen to Mozart than if you listen to Alice Cooper. It just makes you more pretentious. In the past few centuries, music has seen a lot of change, and classical music was essentially the equivalent of popular music in its day.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blackjuice (talk)

To Blackjuice: Have you knowledge of other musical styles? I must tell you that I stand by the research I have done on the effects that certain types of music tend to have. But beyond that, if you have anything further to add, I'd like to see it--and I keep watch on this article. I don't know how much material you have, so perhaps you would consider writing multiple articles, each on a particular musical tradition or style, and including links in this article.--TerryH^Talk 10:11, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

Improvements for featured article

This article is listed to be a featured article (as from 10th April if the order is not changed). It's quite good, but could do, I believe with some pictures of notes and other musical notation to illustrate the description in the Rhythm section, and perhaps even the addition of a Musical notation section. Philip J. Rayment 07:04, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Rewrite

There are some weaknesses in this article, which I will attempt to improve. Statements to the effect that "music can be the most dangerous art form, when misused" are unverifiable and highly debatable. It comes across not unlike those old warnings that "negroid dance rhythms" would corrupt the nation's youth. Biblical references are fine, but in their own section and not the opening paragraph. I'll write more here when I'm done. Eoinc 11:03, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

You also said in your edit comment that you removed "unsourced" material, but the material you removed had a source (which you also removed)! I can sense a reversion coming. Philip J. Rayment 11:20, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

I've moved the Bible section because of poor positioning (see my edit comment), but what was wrong with it where it was? It was under history, and it was talking about the history, so it's original position seems to me to have been entirely appropriate. Philip J. Rayment 11:44, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Not all of the material was unsourced. When I said that I removed "unsourced and debatable" material, I should have said "some unsourced, and some debatable" material. The part about "considered by many to be the highest of all the arts" was unsourced. It may well indeed be the case that some people think that, but it's like saying that "many people consider chess to be the highest board game" or "many people consider Denmark to be the best place to live". It's not useful information.

The debatable material had a source, that's true (although the source was "a private phone call with Terry H"), but the statement itself that music "can be the most dangerous of the arts, when misused" is terribly vague (what constitutes a "misuse" of art?) and very arguable: haven't people rioted over stage plays too? And there has been huge outcry over certain works in the field of visual arts which were considered offensive, or blasphemous. I don't know how one could quantify such things, so I can't see any reason to include the statement. Eoinc 12:09, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Regarding the Bible / History section, I made two separate sections because Biblical statements about Lucifer being the first musician, or post-flood music dating from the time of Abraham are not verifiable by the methods of historians. Eoinc 12:11, 4 May 2008 (EDT)