Debate: Should Christians keep the feast days

If nothing from the law (Torah) will pass away until heaven and earth pass away, which is at the yet-to-come Second Coming (II Pet. 3:10), this means that the entire Torah still remains as binding on humanity. So how can the mainstream of Christianity say that the feast days are abrogated? —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 14:14, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 14:21, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

There is no implied context in Romans 14 that the subject matter has any relevance to the Sabbath day(s); also, you left out the part in Mark 2 where Jesus says, "the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath." IOWs... the Lord's day, literally speaking. Same thing mentioned in Isaiah 58.

Also, as a polite FYI, this debate is specifically about the Jewish feast days; Mark 2 was about the weekly seventh-day Sabbath. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 14:25, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Well, there are two types of Jewish feast days, God-given like Passover, and man-made like Purim (I'm quietly suggesting your rhetoric is overly broad). RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 14:57, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Okay then, to clarify, I'm referring to the seven(?) annual feasts mentioned in Leviticus 23. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 15:00, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Digression on law

The original commandment was capital punishment for failure to keep the Sabbath. One problem was immediately apparent: According to the Book of Numbers, the estimated population of Israel in the wilderness, and the strangers that sojourned with them, was approx. 3.5 million, including women, children, and old folks. This means on any given Sabbath there were people who died within the camp. Then we have the commandment, ye shall come at no unclean thing. So a group of people had to be organized who were exempt from God's command to keep the Sabbath, and whose job was to remove corpses. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 15:09, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

More digression: Moses' father-in-law Jethro suggested to Moses to organize people in groups of 50, groups of 10 with captains of 50, captains of 10, etc. This was because 3.5 million people were too much for Moses to judge. Can you imagine? It was like User:Conservative posting on Andy talk every ten minutes, "Rob's being mean to me". And Jethro's suggestion, as the scripture says, was Jethro's suggestion for the administration of law, and not necessarily God ordained. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 15:16, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Well yes, that's why Jesus came to free us from the curse of the law. (Gal. 3:13) This is what makes the New Covenant different from the Old—the old "typical" system was marked by rigid instant punishment, while the antitypical New Covenant allows a much more forgiving "leeway" of time for individuals to make up their mind on whether to repent or not. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 15:22, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

No it wasn't "marked by rigid instant punishment"; man found the loophole in God's law to exempt undertakers. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 15:27, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Well, the point here is that the intended guidelines under the Mosaic Covenant was a speedy enforcement and judgment against lawbreakers. The man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath day was promptly stoned. (Num. 15:32–36) —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 15:29, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

So who screwed up? God, when he failed to write the exemption into the decalogue for undertakers? or man, when he went off on his own establishing precedents for exemption? RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 15:31, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Man. The Israelites as a nation proved over and over that the Mosaic Covenant was too difficult to live accordingly to, so God promised a new covenant (Jer. 31:31–34) that gave an extra leeway of probation for covenant-adherents who commit transgressions. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 15:55, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Oh. So God promised to replace law with something else. Ok. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 17:17, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Read Hebrews. The law was "changed," not replaced. (Heb. 7:12) —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 17:38, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

The "fault" in the first covenant (Heb. 8:7) obviously was on the part of man (since a covenant is between two parties); God's speedy enforcement of judgment under the Mosaic Covenant wasn't in any way immoral, simply "too much" for an entire nation of sinful human beings to prosper in. The New Covenant is "better" (Heb. 7:22) because it forgivingly takes into consideration the backsliding tendencies of sinful men. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 15:58, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

At Sinai, God offered man a choice between Law or Grace. Man chose Law, which they could not fulfill. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 17:17, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

This artificial total-schism dichotomy between law and grace is unbiblical. Living under grace in Jesus Christ means walking according to the law. (Rom. 3:31, I John 2:3) The real debate isn't "law vs. grace," it's "trying to keep the law by my own strength" or "humbling myself before God and walking in His statutes by His strength." —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 17:38, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

So I'll ask again: Who screwed up? God or man? Didn't God promise to replace the Law with a New Covenant? RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 17:49, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

I already answered that question: man screwed up. And God didn't replace the law/Torah with the New Covenant; He replaced the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. Both covenants pertain to the law, primarily the punishment for transgression. God replaced the Old Covenant with the New to better suit "dealing with" the sinful nature of man and help him. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 18:07, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Ok, you got this part half right: "punishment for transgression". Should read, "punishment for rebellion" or "punishment for rebellion against God". More specifically, rejecting God. Thankfully, God offers us a second chance through Christ. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 18:21, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

What is rebellion against God? Worshipping and serving the creature (i.e. self) more than the Creator. Note: This refers more to an attitude or frame of mind more than a specific act (transgression). RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 18:24, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

If the New Covenant replaced the law/Torah, then it would directly contradict Jesus's words in Matthew 5:18: "until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle will pass from the law until all is accomplished." —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 18:09, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

The Law cannot make righteous. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 18:13, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Well yes, because the law is only a collection of God's perfect rules which judges our iniquities. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 20:50, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

(ec) Here's what the Bible teaches (in thumbnail): The Grace of God has always existed, laid before the foundations of the Earth. With the fall of Adam, and murder of righteous Abel (and what came afterward, "every thought of his heart was to do evil continuously"), man rejected God's Grace, and chose Law. But the Law was only our schoolmaster, to bring us unto righteousness. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 18:13, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Man chose law? If man chose to abide by God's law, he would not have sinned, because "sin is the transgression of the law." (I John 3:4) And there is no transgression where there is no law (Rom. 4:35), which means that since Adam and Cain clearly committed some infraction, they violated God's instituted law. Grace means redemption from the stain of sin, justified by God, to thereafter walk in His law instead of one's own ways. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 20:49, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

God gave all his creatures free will. Lucifer chose to worship and serve the creature more than the Creator. Adam and all his offspring followed suit. God is constantly offering man choices. Man constantly makes the wrong choice. Man chose Law over Grace. The Law can only condemn, it cannot save. Jesus came to redeem us from the curse of the Law. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 21:20, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully." (I Tim. 1:8) —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 21:42, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

• Of course Rob is right. It was God himself who said to kill the man. Numbers 15:35. Then again after someone else misinterpreted Genesis yesterday - out of political motivation. No wonder... [Indeed Genesis 21:12 relates to: Genesis 12:7 too...].Telling (talk) 21:08, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Christians often do this, they poo-poo Israel's place in the scheme of things, and say everything points to the coming messiah. Whereas the scripture teaches blood-washed, born-again Christians always existed at least as far back as "righteous Abel", Job who was "upright and perfect" long before there ever were 10 commandments, Abraham who feared God and it was reckoned unto him as righteousness, Mose who spoke to God face-to-face, Zachariah and Elizabeth in the Book of Luke, the widow of 84 years and Simon (I think his name was) all in New Testament scripture - all these were declared righteous before God long before Jesus ever died, buried, and was resurrected. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 21:30, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

RobSmith, when you say "Israel's place," are you referring to ancient Israel leading up to 34 A.D., or the modern secular-political "State of Israel"? The two are not the same thing. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 21:41, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

I'm speaking of biblical Israel, and the remnant that was saved. God has promised to never abandon Israel. Look it up.

meaning Abraham believed in the resurrection. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 21:44, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

That's a relief, because I was worried you'd spout the same dispensationalist drivel I heard from Ken in at least one voice call. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 21:49, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Abraham didn't hesitate and say, "Now wait a minute. How you gonna do this? If I slit Issac's throat, how you gonna multiply my seed as the stars of heaven? Huh? Huh?" Abraham believed God (i.e. had faith in God) and it was reckoned unto him as righteousness. By faith are ye saved. Abraham knew God would make Isaac live again. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 22:00, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

• Point was made about him misinterpreting facts, history - motivated by negative trend.

To the question, if modern State of Israel is fulfilling in any way the real spiritual way and goal? Of course Not. (Not just because most are secular and all but Bennett were secar PMs). Some believe it is a process. (Some believe this about Trump too). But to outrageously deny the Biblical and historic (befoe Arab invasion) linkage to the land is rewriting, again. Telling (talk) 22:48, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 22:56, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

"Israel is God's chosen people." Well, which Israel? In Romans, Paul prays that one Israel might be saved (10:1), assures that another will entirely, assuredly be saved (11:26), and says "they are not all Israel which are of Israel." (9:6) The "Israel" that is God's chosen people is spiritual Israel. If J. Vernon McGee didn't comprehend this simple fact, I don't care about the rest of what he has to say. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 23:24, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Hmm, I see that McGee is listed as a prominent alumni of the Dallas Theological Seminary... sounds like he was definitely a Masonic insider trained to spread Futurist/dispensationalist propaganda on behalf of the Jesuits. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 23:28, July 15, 2024 (EDT)

Chosen people is a pact with a burden of more responsibility / it never stopped

Dear Rob.

Puishment and or permitted persecution from God does not absolve the perpetrators: whether Blood-libels inventors; German Nazis or Arab/Muslims. See book of Numbers on Pharaoh and the ten plagues. Or about the Babilonians at: Psalms 137:8 (And maybe what we say in Iraq is related to that but we don't know of course). Disregarding last so EXPECTED "reply" by someone with a current negative agenda). Jews Chosen people means more obligation. And maybe punishment is therefore more severe. 'Nuff said.

Deut. 7:6-8. For you are a people consecrated to your God of all the peoples on earth your God chose you to be God’s treasured people. It is not because you are the most numerous of peoples that God grew attached to you and chose you—indeed, you are the smallest of peoples; but it was because God favored you and kept the oath made to your fathers that God freed you with a mighty hand and rescued you from the house of bondage, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Chosenness / God's pact never stops:

Leviticus 26:44: Yet, even then, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or spurn them so as to destroy them, annulling My covenant with them: for I am their God.

One needs to know (rather acknowledge) basic Bible To see the cable was never cut from Abraham/Isaac/Jacob, 12 Tribes entering Israel under Joshua... the building of the Temple, the destruction [Book of Lamentation], Babylonian Exile...till the Book of Esther where they were first called Jews. The very unbroken chain of persecution for over 2,000 years proves: these are the same people. Speaking of Romans' destruction of the 2bd Temple... in Italian, 'Jews' is EBREI... But it's not just ethnic, because Ruth - who was the first Jewish convert was the great grandmother of king David...Telling (talk) 00:42, July 16, 2024 (EDT)

Rahab, too.

Found this Magee quote, too:

Book of Judges, man, there's some wild stuff in there. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 03:25, July 16, 2024 (EDT)

No doubt there were some scary times VS under kings: David, his son Solomon, king Asa of Judah, etc.Telling (talk) 09:08, July 16, 2024 (EDT)

The seventy weeks of Daniel ended in 34 A.D. and Jesus said, "your house is left unto you desolate." (Matt. 23:38) "Typical" (in the sense of type/antitype) Judaism necessitated the presence of a literal Temple; the sacrificial type was fulfilled in Christ, rendering obsolete the need for a continued sacrificial system, and with it, the entire (literal) Levitical priesthood. In fulfilled, antitypical Judaism (IOWs, supersessionist Christianity), the high priest is Christ (Heb. 4:14), and the apostolic church is the "royal priesthood" (I Pet. 2:9) whose antitypical sacrifices to offer unto God are charitable good works. (Heb. 13:16)

And the Second Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., so how are the literal Jewish people still the "chosen people"? How can "typical" Old Testament Judaism—with its commanded sacrificial system and associated Temple and altar—still be the true faith if the earthly Temple has been gone for nearly two millennia? Rules 301–419 of the Mitzvot are about the sacrificial system. If the literal Jews are still the chosen people, that necessitates that there is a literal sacrificial system they follow. Oh right, so that's why they're building a Third Temple... —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 11:18, July 16, 2024 (EDT)

__

The issue of sacrificing animals today or not is a whole different discussion. We shall know only when the Messaiah comes. Some hold that it was only done in ancient times as so to differentiate from those other nations sacrificing for idols. But this issue doesn't negate chosennes. Not liking something does not change facts. Nor does it when INVENTING. Another radical anti Israel extremist left site that quotes 3 and half people - outcasts - a fringe of a fringe rejected in Israel. Who cares about them? It's again jumping on rare people or a rare expample in a passion to prove a negagive pointless "point." No Jewish authority permits to take matters into heir own hands anyway. God has his ways.

Again, Leviticus 26:44 is still on speaking on the Jews in exile. There is not one verse refuting this. Yet, even then, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or spurn them so as to destroy them, annulling My covenant with them: for I am their God.

The verse ending in Book of Lamentation also ends with the prayer to get back to the good ol' times. Again, the fact that Jews are being punished- if it the case. It is precisely because of extra burden of a pact.Telling (talk) 12:58, July 16, 2024 (EDT)