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response: The Bible itself says that God the Holy Spirit baptizes through water. It is the work of God who baptizes ''with'' water and the Spirit together to regenerate life. It is not man who baptizes, and water alone is not baptism. Bible refs, linked.
== Regenerative salvation by water and the Spirit: water baptism saves ==
== Regenerative salvation by water and the Spirit: water baptism saves ==
Although I said above that I would not be heard again on this page, I thought it would be useful to the reader to have a summary what the word of God says ([[Infant baptism|''see the article'']]):
Although I said above that I would not be heard again on this page, I thought it would be useful to the reader to have a summary of what the word of God says ([[Infant baptism|''see the article'']]):
*Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]
*Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]
*Baptism saves you now. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Peter%203%3A21 1 Peter 3:21]
*Baptism saves you now. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Peter%203%3A21 1 Peter 3:21]
:*''they that are in the flesh cannot please God.''
:*''they that are in the flesh cannot please God.''
:Water baptism is of the flesh. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 18:50, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
:Water baptism is of the flesh. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 18:50, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
::No, it is not. It is of God. The Bible itself says that God the Holy Spirit baptizes through water. Christian baptism is not of the flesh. It was established by Jesus Himself as necessary to enter the kingdom of God. Christian water baptism is the work of God who baptizes ''with'' water and the Spirit together to regenerate life. It is not man who baptizes, and water alone devoid of the sanctifying Spirit of God is not Christian baptism. By the regeneration ('''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'') of baptism of water and the Spirit a person is enabled by the Spirit of God to worship God in spirit and in truth and given the [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%202%3A10 power to please God].
::*[http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm Except a person be regenerated by water '''and''' the Spirit, a person cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5 "regenerated" '''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'' interlinear text] <br>from [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080 '''γεννάω''' ''gennao'' "procreate, regenerate"].
::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%206%3A11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:11] <br> [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19].
::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%2012%3A3 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13]
::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Galatians%2012%3A3 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27]
::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.] Romans 6:3-4.
::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%202%3A5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, <nowiki>[God]</nowiki> made us alive together with Christ (by '''grace''' you have been saved). Ephesians 2:5]. <br> ([[Grace]] '''χάριτί''' ''[[charism|charity]]'' the "gift" bestowed by God on man is not a synonym for the [[faith]] '''πίστεως''' ''pisteos'' of man toward God. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians+2%3A8-10&version=KJV See Ephesians 2:8-10]. Compare <br> [http://biblehub.com/greek/5485 grace '''χάρις''' ''charis'' "grace, graciousness, especially the divine influence on the heart" given by God] and <br> [http://biblehub.com/greek/4102 faith '''ριστις''' ''pistis'' "persuasion, credence, conviction of truth, reliance on Christ for salvation, expressed by man.])
::*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.] Ephesians 4:5-6.
::According to the Bible Christian Baptism is a divinely ordained union of the operation "of water and the Spirit" together in God by the blood of Christ [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%205%3A26 who alone sanctifies us, having cleansed us by the washing of water with the word]. Christian Baptism is not a water ritual empty of the Spirit and totally separated from the blood of Christ. Food itself is made holy by prayer [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Timothy%204%3A5 1 Timothy 4:5]. So [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Timothy%204%3A5 water is made holy with the word]. To speak of Christian Baptism as if it is merely a symbolic ritual of the flesh alone, utterly devoid of the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit Himself directly applying the saving blood of Christ to the soul, is not to speak of Christian Baptism at all.
::"God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." True. God also is material flesh incarnate—"And you...he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven"–for "the word became flesh and dwelt among us", the Holy Spirit descended and remained upon him at baptism, and we have an altar from which those who serve the Jewish Tabernacle have no right to eat. (John 4:24; Colossians 1:21-23; John 1:14; Hebrews 13:10.)
::The belief that God can not, does not, will not work his grace of salvation through the instrument of material water in union with the spiritual word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit is similar to the doctrine of [[Docetism]] which held that the purity of God the Word, the Son of the Father, could not personally defile himself by becoming incarnate human flesh, because it is impossible that pure spirit can ever interact with impure matter, "having flesh and bones". His appearance was only a symbolic vision, not the personal reality of Himself, so that it was impossible that Jesus could really shed his blood, die on the cross, be dead, and actually rise from the dead. God has no need whatever for any material means of effecting salvation. John refuted this in the first words of his Gospel (John 1:1-18). Credobaptism absolutely denies, repudiates and condemns the claim that God ever would or ever could work salvation directly through any kind of proper material ministry of Christian Baptism by water and the Spirit, which he himself ordained in John 3:3-5 and Matthew 28:19-20 [[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|''ex opere operato'']]. God waits helplessly for man to open the door of his heart by faith so that the Lord might come in to him. The doctrine of salvation by faith alone is totally dependent on the willing cooperation of man who must first know and understand and believe before God can save him. Infants cannot do that. By this reasoning salvation by faith ''is'' a work of man, and baptism is not the cause of spiritual regeneration because it is only a legal [[ordinance]] of water without the power of the Spirit.
::Consistently, ''on the basis of sacred scripture, and because of scripture'', the catholic and orthodox Christian Church east and west has condemned as a [[heresy]] the doctrine that baptism has no power from God, that Jesus did not establish the sacrament of baptism as the ordinary means of salvation by water and the Spirit, and that salvation is ''[[sola fide]]'' without any need for [[Corporal and spiritual works of mercy|works of mercy]], condemning also as a heresy the doctrine that eternal life once received by faith alone cannot be lost, rescinded, revoked, or forfeited by sin and [[apostasy]], the doctrine of [[Eternal security (salvation)|eternal security]].
::This entire Talk page, and the debate represented on it by myself and RobS above, is to my thinking an excellent companion article to [[Infant baptism]]. RobS has vigorously argued and persistently defended the doctrine of credobaptism and salvation ''[[sola fide]]''. I count it a privilege to have contributed as clearly as possible without misrepresentation or distortion the Catholic doctrine of regenerative baptism unto everlasting life by the saving power of the blood of Jesus Christ alone, by reasoning based on the Bible. To all who read this page, thank you, and may God richly bless you and guide you into the fullness of truth. Amen. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 04:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)