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→Article completed, request that it be locked: Restore for context to ongoing discussions; please wait 30 days before archiving dead discussions.
::I relied on what I found online at Wikipedia "Infant baptism" and with search "Denominations that practice infant baptism". Both searches provided the statements made in the body of the article re denominations that do not practice infant baptism, for example the "Oneness" groups. I repeated the same information further down, that the credobaptist position condemns to hell the whole specific list of denominations that practice infant baptism. I appreciate what you added and have absolutely no objection to it. However, you seriously misjudged my motive for requesting a lock according to reasons I explained to Andy Schlafly on his talk page regarding the hot-button topic of infant baptism as treated online. He apparently agreed with my reason. The behavior of RobSmith, below, is a perfect example of intrusively prejudicial one-sided editing imbalance that should be kept from a balanced article on such a sensitive doctrinal issue. I wish you well. Thank you, again. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 02:30, 5 November 2019 (EST)
::I relied on what I found online at Wikipedia "Infant baptism" and with search "Denominations that practice infant baptism". Both searches provided the statements made in the body of the article re denominations that do not practice infant baptism, for example the "Oneness" groups. I repeated the same information further down, that the credobaptist position condemns to hell the whole specific list of denominations that practice infant baptism. I appreciate what you added and have absolutely no objection to it. However, you seriously misjudged my motive for requesting a lock according to reasons I explained to Andy Schlafly on his talk page regarding the hot-button topic of infant baptism as treated online. He apparently agreed with my reason. The behavior of RobSmith, below, is a perfect example of intrusively prejudicial one-sided editing imbalance that should be kept from a balanced article on such a sensitive doctrinal issue. I wish you well. Thank you, again. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 02:30, 5 November 2019 (EST)
===Salvation===
Let's go back to John 3:3,5. Jesus first says,
:''Except a man be born again, he cannot '''see''' the Kingdom of God.''
In verse 5 he says.
:''Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot '''enter''' into the Kingdom of God.
So, what is the difference between "seeing" the Kingdom of God, and "entering" the Kingdom of God? Moses saw the Promised Land, but did not enter. Was Moses '''saved'''? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:25, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
Ok, let's go to the next level, which only the Spirit of God can reveal:
:John 1:27 ''No man hath seen God at any time''
:Exodus 33:11 ''The Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend''
Now, being immersed in the spirit, reconcile for me these two passages, and I'll believe that you are not unskillful in the word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 22:41, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
::''we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.''
::''But we have the mind of Christ.''
:So, to restate: ''No (natural) man hath seen God at any time...'' Moses had the ''mind of Christ'' enabling him to speak with the Lord ''face to face''.
::Exodus 33:13: ''Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found '''grace''' in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight''
:'''Salvation''' is by grace. You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or ''see the Kingdom of God'')
:It's pretty simple. It's not rocket science. God never intended it to be a scholarly exercise. It's gotta be simple enough for a child to understand. Just remember, ''That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit.'' Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 03:46, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
::'''Fundamental Salvation'''
::''For the benefit of other readers here'', it is evident that you did not read the two links I provided for direct access to the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'', which '''affirms''' your last statement above "'''Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh'''" ([http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1213 '''1213-1284'''] and [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#1987 '''1987-2029''']). <br> It's pretty simple. Baptism '''saves''' the soul. A child can understand that.
::You asked me to answer the question, "What is '''salvation'''?" I gave you my answer from the Bible. The Bible answer to the question "What is '''salvation'''?" is set forth fully in the ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'' as a [[reiteration]] of all that the '''''Bible''''' says. The ''Catechism'' defines '''salvation''' from scripture alone, using abundant citations and quotations from scripture, with literal conclusions from scripture, drawn from the common understanding of the Church Fathers east and west, who based all they said on the [[Exegesis|literal sense of scripture]], the [[sensus fidelium]], [[sensus plenior]] and [[sensus Christianorum]] of Christianity, faithfully expressing "the mind of Christ", so that what you rejected as "traditions of men" is in fact the teaching of scripture, "and the scripture cannot be broken" ([http://biblehub.com/john/10-35.htm John 10:35]; [http://biblehub.com/mark/12-24.htm Mark 12:24]; [http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-34.htm 1 Corinthians 15:34]).
::I can say this because I am primarily and fundamentally a Bible apologist, who just happens to be Catholic. I was raised a Baptist. I know the Bible. I am 72 years old and I have read it cover to cover 82 times since before the age of 12 when I finally "went forward and accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior" and was baptized by full immersion at Grace Baptist Church (''Conservative Baptist'') in Des Moines, Iowa, in the spring of 1959. Shortly afterward I was appointed by the pastor as one of the "youth conversion counsellors" of newly baptized young teen converts and made one of the leaders of our Youth Group, and actively joined "Youth for Christ". Years later, as an adult, by fervent prayer, and by my knowledge of scripture and history and finding out by careful investigation what Catholicism and Orthodoxy actually teaches (which is not what I had been ''told'' they teach), at age 33 the Lord Jesus led me to embrace the Catholic Church as the most biblically faithful Church on the face of the earth. I held to three fundamental scripture passages:
::::'''[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1%3A6-9&version=KJV Galatians 1:6-9]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+2%3A18-19&version=KJV 1 John 2:18-19];''' and '''[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14%3A16-17&version=KJV John 14:16-17]''' ''with'' '''[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+16%3A12-14&version=KJV John 16:12-14].'''
::I looked for a church that did not come out of another church and teach a doctrine different from the church it came out of. Only one church qualified historically and scripturally. People asked me, "How can you do that?" I said, "Because I believe the Bible. Let me show you." I stand on the firm foundation of the doctrine of the Bible which includes all "authority established by God" ([https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A1-10&version=KJV Romans 13:1-10]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+13%3A17&version=KJV Hebrews 13:17]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+2%3A13-17&version=KJV 1 Peter 2:13-17]). The established Church has "the mind of Christ".
::Rejection of scripture written by men who were sent by the Lord, is rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by the Father, and rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by God is rejection of the Lord who sent Him ([http://biblehub.com/luke/10-16.htm Luke 10:16]; [http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-40.htm Matthew 10:40]; [http://biblehub.com/luke/9-48.htm Luke 9:48]; [http://biblehub.com/john/13-20.htm John 13:20]; [http://biblehub.com/luke/9-48.htm 12:48]). The full context of the teaching of the Bible itself according to the whole of the first sixteen centuries of consistent Christian understanding of '''salvation''' through the blood of Christ alone, poured out by the Holy Spirit of Christ ([https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8%3A9-11&version=KJV Romans 8:9-11]) in baptism with water ([http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-6.htm 1 John 5:6]; [http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-11.htm 1 Corinthians 6:11]; [http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-5.htm Revelation 1:5]), was the reason the whole Christian Church, Catholic, Orthodox and mainstream Protestant ''together'', guided by the Holy Spirit ([http://biblehub.com/john/14-16.htm John 14:16] and [http://biblehub.com/john/14-26.htm 26]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+16%3A13-14&version=KJV 16:13-14]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+28%3A19-20&version=KJV Matthew 28:19-20]), condemned the credobaptism doctrine of the [[Anabaptists]] and [[Baptist]]s as a doctrine of Satan himself. What they say I say with them. This is my final answer. You will not hear from me again on this page. <br> [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/29-9.htm Proverbs 28:9] — also [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/18-1.htm 18:1]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/20-3.htm 20:3]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/22-10.htm 22:10]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/26-12.htm 26:12]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/27-3.htm 27:3]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/30-5.htm 30:5].<br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:42, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
===Were any Old Testament figures '''saved''' by grace or baptism?===
:::1 Cor. 10:4 ''all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.''
:::Exodus 33: ''And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for '''thou hast found grace in my sight'''''
:::''Behold, '''there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock''''' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:Next question: ''Was Job '''saved'''? Were Zachariah and Elisabeth '''saved'''? Were Simeon and Anna (Luke 2) '''saved'''? Was David '''saved'''? and Solomon (relates to the question of Eternal security, as well)? And a real tuff one, was Manassah '''saved'''?
:We know Abraham was '''saved''' (Gal 3:6, Rom 4:3) '''''long''''' before there ever was a Law of Moses or doctrine of baptisms. We know righteous Abel was '''saved''', as well, because he understood the necessity of a blood sacrifice.
:So the gospel of '''salvation''' by grace has been preached since the beginning, long before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ took place in fulfillment of the scriptures. But we see some could not enter in, because of disbelief (lack of faith).
:The Law (or "the letter") killeth. Grace gives life. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:51, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::"''So the gospel of '''salvation''' by grace has been preached since the beginning, long before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ took place in fulfillment of the scriptures.''" You say they were already '''saved''' before any of this took place.<br>Either you have done away with the need for Christ by the credobaptist doctrine of '''salvation''' by faith alone ''sola fide'', or you have confirmed the doctrine of "baptism of desire" by which all those "spirits in prison" were freed by the preaching of Christ himself because of their hope which waited (they were forced to wait) for his baptism of them in fulfillment of their desire for '''salvation''' 1 Peter 3:18-21. ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'', '''1260'''
:::"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be '''saved'''. It may be supposed that such persons would have ''desired Baptism explicitly'' if they had known its necessity."
::Hebrews 11:39-40 says most explicitly,
:::"And all these, though well attested by their faith, '''did not receive what was promised''', since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us '''they should not be made perfect'''.
::They had to wait, because they had not yet been '''saved''' by the blood of Jesus Christ and had not yet been born again of water and the Spirit.<br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:04, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::Was Abraham '''saved'''?
::::Rom 4: ''1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
::::''2 For if Abraham were '''justified''' by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
::::''3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness, etc.
::::Cite scripture for your response, not church tradition, church doctrine, Catholic catechism, or any other teaching of man. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 16:12, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::'''I did cite scripture.''' My response each time was solidly based on scripture. Church doctrine supports scripture. You reject fundamental parts of the Bible and twist its meaning for the sake of your credobaptist tradition, "a tradition of men", which the vast body of all Christianity in the sixteenth century, ''solidly based on scripture'' (on the whole context of the entire Bible), denounced as a Satanic heresy based on violation of the Bible itself. [[Cafeteria Christianity#Proof texts]]. And I will not reject Christian doctrine based for over sixteen centuries on the whole context of the Bible and the "mind of Christ" in the [[sensus fidelium]], [[sensus plenior]], [[sensus Christianorum]] in all of the passages of the Bible I have cited all down through this page. I am heedful of the warning of Peter 1 Peter 3:15-18. However much you press me to do so, I will not deny Christ. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:38, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::You haven't answered the question: ''Was Abraham '''saved'''?'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:15, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
====What have we learned from our father, Abraham?====
Abraham was instructed to take his son, '''''thine only son''''', and kill him. Not wavering in faith, Abraham never doubted that God would resurrect him somehow to fulfill God's promise to multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the sky. Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned (or imputed) unto him as righteousness.
:Rom 5: 1 ''Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
:2 ''through whom also we have the '''access by the faith into this grace''' in which we have stood''
Where was Abraham ever baptized? before the law of baptisms was ever was given (Leviticus, and elsewhere)? Abraham was circumcised, but circumcision is of the heart, not of the flesh. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:39, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:I see you've avoided answering this key New Testament question (Romans chapter 4 and Galatians) now for 4 days. Here's the Answer:
:''Abraham was '''saved''' by belief (faith) in the resurrection. He was '''justified''' by his faith, and '''saved''' from wrath, and '''saved''' from the works of the Law. Abraham was a blood washed, born again Christian. '' We also now by faith have access into this same grace.
:Maybe now you can understand the verses referring to ''before the foundations of the earth were laid'', or ''In the beginning was the word''. or ''from everlasting to everlasting'', or ''I am Alpha and Omega'', or ''predestined and foreordained'', or ''there is no new thing under the sun''.
:Do not avoid this question - it is foundational to any man of faith.
:Faith is quite simple - it is trust. Trust in God. Trust in God's word. Trust in God over our own understanding and reasoned judgements.
:To rely on ourselves, rather than accept God, God's word, and God's teaching, is pride - what St. Valentine and the Catholic church call original sin. It was the sin of Lucifer - making himself out to be God. It was the sin of Adam - rejecting God to ''worship and serve the creature more than the Creator''. It is the sin of everyone who rejects the Gospel of Grace in favor of a doctrine of Law, that by welldoing you can earn your standing with God. God see's rejection of the sacrifice of his son as pride. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 08:14, 3 November 2019 (EST)
===Exodus chapter 33===
:::1 Cor. 10:4 ''all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.''
:::Exodus 33: ''And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for '''thou hast found grace in my sight'''''
:::''Behold, '''there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock''''' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::::God also told Moses, "My face you shall not see, for no one can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-23). Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up on the mountain, and they did see the God of Israel up on the top of the peak, but only from a distance, not up close (Exodus 24:9-11). Abuse of the statement that Moses talked with God "face to face" has been competently answered by qualified biblical scholars as a Semitic expression of intimate friendship of communion, not a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus face to face, nor a direct visual encounter of the [[Beatific vision]]. These scholars also explain that the "gospel" preached to Israel in the wilderness of Sanai was not the Christian revelation, but the good news in the law revealed to Moses explaining the rewards of obedience "if you obey my word". That message included the promise of a Prophet to come. <br> In answer to the challenge of reconciling Moses and John – Take a look at the commentaries on [http://biblehub.com/commentaries/deuteronomy/5-4.htm Deuteronomy 5:4 "The L<small>ORD</small> spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of fire."] Their answer is mine also. Moses beheld the presence of the Lord, and spoke with Him "face to face", but he did not see the face of God. The scholars have explained all this. I agree with them. The challenge to reconcile Moses and John has been met and answered already. Their response is my response as well. This makes me and them "competent to explain" the scriptures according to "the mind of Christ".
:::::That's your response?
:::::*Mark 7:13 ''Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 15:58, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::God didn't mean what he said, or he was too stupid to clarify himself. He needed human scholars and teachers to set it straight, huh? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 15:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::He said, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." It is you who make the word of God of no effect through your credobaptist tradition. That is why credobaptists in the sixteenth century were condemned by Protestants and Catholics for abuse of the scriptures. Documented ''[[anathema]]s'' against credobaptism go all the way back to the 3rd century. And Protestants agreed.
::::::Conservative Christian historians and [[Christian apologetics|apologists]] are mindful of this statement by [[John Eck]] addressed to [[Martin Luther]], in the year 1521:<ref>Eck's statement here is supremely appropriate in light of Luther's refusal to submit to the judgment of the Church, the emperor Charles V, and the [[Pope]], and the teaching of Paul in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13:1-5&version=KJV Romans 13:1-5].</ref><blockquote>
::::::"...there is no one of the [[Heresy|heresies]] which have torn the bosom of the church, which has not derived its origin from the various interpretation of the Scripture. The Bible itself is the arsenal whence each innovator has drawn his [[ Specious reasoning|deceptive arguments]]. It was with biblical texts that [[Pelagianism|Pelagius]] and [[Arius]] maintained their doctrines. Arius, for instance, found the negation of the eternity of the Word—an eternity which you admit, in this verse of the New Testament—''Joseph knew not his wife till she had brought forth her first-born son''; and he said, in the same way that you say, that this passage '''enchained''' him. When the fathers of the [[council of Constance]] condemned this proposition of [[John Huss]]—''The church of Jesus Christ is only the community of the elect'', they condemned an error; for the church, like a good mother, embraces within her arms all who bear the name of Christian, all who are called to enjoy the celestial beatitude."<ref>{{cite web|url=http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/luther/lutherbyluther.html#secondnarrative|title=Life of Luther (Luther by Martin Luther)|author=Martin Luther|publisher=}}</ref>
</blockquote>
::::::(Compare the article on [[Hypocrites]].) --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::Did God speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend (Martin Luther has nothing to do with this question). The answer is a simple 'yes' or 'no'.
:::::::The next question is: Are there contradictions in the bible? Is the bible inviolate? (Here, scholars, church teaching, and church tradition can't help you. Your response is entirely dependent on your faith). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:11, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::The Pentecostal article below is a rebuttal of your position, and is presented here as my response. Jesus '''saved''' many people without their faith. That includes babies, Old Testament saints, and all pagans who never had opportunity to hear the Gospel, who ''would have accepted baptism by water and the Spirit'' if they had known of its necessity.
::::::::"''Here, scholars, church teaching, and church tradition can't help you.''" Devout scholars, church teaching, and church tradition do help. But you refuse to accept it (John 10:25-26). Your refusal is a clear example of classic [[Confirmation bias]]. All of the centuries-old consistent understanding of the Bible by all of Christendom ''based on the Bible'' is held in contempt by you. Even when presented with an abundance of scripture alone which demolishes the house of credobaptist doctrine as clearly opposed to the Bible, you reject it. [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2023%3A38 Matthew 23:38]. I had thought that you were a person of honest Christian integrity dedicated to the truth of the Bible. From the way you worded some of your answers I believe that you actually refused ''on principle'' to read the authoritative Bible texts and sources linked for immediate access which contradict credobaptism. Look at the article on [[Enmity]]. <br> Some of the people who read this page when I showed it to them said you were being sarcastic, and are someone who always has to have the "last word" no matter what is said. They told me I was wasting all my time and energy on this page in a pointless exercise of unending futility. They said if you ever change your mind, it won't be because of me. They said just leave it to the Lord and he will deal with you. <br> I have been patient with you, and firm. I am also grateful. Because of your challenges I have carefully re-read the Bible like the long-ago Beroeans of [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%2017%3A11 Acts 17:11], and the fruit of all this is that I have gained a much deeper insight to what it was like for Jesus to debate with the scribes and Sadducees and Pharisees who refused to listen to him even when he cited the scriptures. And I have an even deeper and more loving appreciation of Him as a true man, both fully human and fully God. The result of this research was the abundance of Bible texts cited in context all down this page which clearly support the doctrine of regenerative baptism against credobaptism "'''salvation''' by faith alone ''[[sola fide]]''". I had constant recourse to the help of [[Strong's|Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with its Hebrew and Greek dictionaries of the Old and New Testaments]]. I will have no more to do with you, as Paul advised [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Titus%203%3A10 Titus 3:10]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:17, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::So, I'm taking your response to mean (a) the bible has contradictions, and (b) the bible ''is not'' inviolate.
:::::::::Is that correct? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
:::::::::I never once used the term "credobaptism". The word does not appear anywhere in the bible, as I understand and/or are familiar with it (look it up in ''Strong's'' if you don't believe me). It is entirely your invention in this discussion. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 18:43, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::Lastly, your posting below is simply more church doctrine from somewhere irrelevant to this discussion. Spamming the page has not helped any of your arguments; it's more reminiscent of Christ's warnings about other Pharisaical teachings: '' they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 18:51, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::'[https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/5-37.htm Let your answers be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.]' (Matt 5:37) - affirming what is, and what is not, the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 19:38, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::One final comment: God is not an intellectual exercise.
::::::::::*''He catcheth the crafty in their craftiness''
::::::::::*''I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to '''save''' them that believe.''
::::::::::I learned from Catholic catechism that 7 years of age is the "age of reason;" by 10 I had it figured out and left the church. God's teaching must be simple enough for a child to understand.
::::::::::I can appreciate the teaching of the Catholic church. At the age of 8, as an altar boy, I recall a high mass on Easter Sunday, where me, the priest, and 3 other altar boys sat down at the beginning of the mass. I wanted to rise up and perform the service, but the priest signaled to me to remain seated. The Gospel reading that day was from Hebrews, chapter 10:12 stood out to emphasize the point and symbolism: ''"when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down"''. All else is extraneous. ''For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.'' (Heb 4:10). ''"It is finished'' (John 19:39). I'm grateful to the Catholic church for having taught me God's word, but all the calisthenics and hand-washing is extraneous. The message is simple. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 00:45, 31 October 2019 (EDT)
Back to Exodus 33 (I love this chapter). So, what is the Gospel? Again, it must be simple enough for a child to understand. For expedience sake, I'm going to thumbnail and encapsulate it in John 15:13: ''Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends''
Disclaimer: we all know it's much more but for expedience sake I'm using this verse.
Now, we have to back up momentarily to Exodus 32 (verse 10-32 for complete context). Verse 31-32 Moses says ''Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.''
This is the Spirit of Christ speaking. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 12:56, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
===Gal 1:6-9===
:*''I am astonished that '''you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ''' and turning to a different gospel—not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.''
:::So, you appear to be deserting the gospel of grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 11:56, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
::::By grace are ye '''saved''', through faith, not of works.
::::If we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
It ain't rocket science, and spamming the page to hide your embarrassment don't help. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 12:01, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
:Like Paul, I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. <br> I was taught as a Baptist to be faithful to the Bible as the Word of God. As a faithful Baptist heeding all the scriptures I have cited above, and based on the Bible alone ''sola scriptura'', I obeyed and accepted that the Catholic Church had to be the one true Church. "Catholic" means universal, for all people of all places in every time to the day of judgment. It was the only Church not founded by people who had disobeyed those over them, and left and went out from them, and taught a doctrine different from the gospel they had been taught by the Church that they left, and denied that the Holy Spirit had remained for ever with the leadership of that Church, saying that Christ who remained to the end of the world had not remained, saying that He had departed and was no longer with that Church. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ Himself as His Bride, remaining with her to the end of the world as the vessel and channel of the grace of God given to the whole world as the body of Christ Himself, sent as He was sent, as the Savior of the world, baptizing. The Church is the "Temple of the Spirit", "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling-place of God in the Spirit" (1 Peter 2:4-5; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; Ephesians 2:19-22). "He cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:11-13). ''To depart from the Church is deserting the gospel of grace.'' The grace of '''salvation''' comes from Christ alone through the Catholic Church he founded and sent out into the whole world as "the pillar and ground of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), "that through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 3:10). --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 12:44, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
::If you have to work to earn grace, it ain't grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:05, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
::Church membership is not '''salvation'''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:09, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
:::Grace is bestowed by Christ through his body the Church and those baptized into him are '''saved'''. The Catholic Church '''saves''' as the one sent by God. The Church '''saves''' because Jesus is God in her as her head and the Holy Spirit dwells in her as the temple of God and it is he who sanctifies her and is the source of '''salvation''', because God is in her at work in her members as members of the body of Christ himself, both to will and to work for his good pleasure (Philippians 2:12-13). --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:12, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
::::Look, spamming the page with pious sounding rhetoric '''saves''' no one. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:19, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
::::The church '''saves'''? I don't think even Catholic doctrine teaches that. You're bordering on speaking anathema. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:21, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
:::::Catholic doctrine "teaches that" in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 836-837. <br>'''836''' "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to '''salvation'''." <br> '''837''' "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of '''salvation''' given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not '''saved'''. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"
:::::You clearly don't know what you're talking about. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:37, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::I clearly have the power of discernment - of separating the Word of God from the doctrines of men. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::Amputating a few words from Philippians doesn't help you.
::::Let's look at the context from which you abuse Phillipians:
::::*''5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus''
::::We already discussed what it means to ''have the mind of Christ'' - that part you left out. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 15:39, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
==Analysis==
The argument seems to be:
*The Bible, or Word of God, is not authoritative;
*'''Salvation''' is dependent upon church membership;
*While baptism qualifies a person for adoption into God's family, it is no guarantee; '''salvation''' still must be earned by good works, or at least the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of certain sins.
.[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 05:57, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:::<big>Your citation to Romans 2 here is out of place. Paul is speaking to the '''unsaved''', to those under Law, not under grace. The first seven chapters of Romans is all spoken to those outside the family of God.
:::What does it mean to be ''in Christ?'' (Romans chapter 8 and elsewhere: ''there is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ''. This stands in stark contrast to those under condemnation in Romans 2, ''he will render to every man according to his works''. To be '''saved''' means to be '''saved''' from the wrath of the Law.
:::I should leave it at that, however this doctrine is supported by the parable of the householder who went to hire labourers in his field (Matt 20). They all got the same pay, whether they worked one hour or all day. ''The Kingdom of God is like unto'' the householder who shortchanged the guys who labored all day and paid the bum stragglers the same amount. So no, those who are '''saved''' by grace shall not be repaid according to their works.
:::::"''So no, those who are '''saved''' by grace shall '''''not''''' be repaid according to their works.''"
:::::You have just contradicted the Word of God, and condemned yourself.
:::::*For he will render to '''every''' man according to his '''works''': to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are [[Schism|factious]] and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for '''every one who does good''', the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
:::::*You see that a man is justified by '''works''' and not by '''faith alone'''. Jm 2:24 (context [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james+2%3A12-26&version=RSVCE '''James 2:12-26'''].) {{unsigned|User:Dataclarifier}}
:::It's a gospel of grace, not of works.</big> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 22:51, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:::I place my comments here because by context they belong here. You've strung together various verses; most are spoken to the people of God. Roman 2:6 is spoken to lost sinners - people apart from God. By removing my post from its proper context, you are preaching a doctrine of men, '''''rendering the word of God to no effect.''''' 07:19, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::I place my original response here because by context it belongs here as my original response to your assertion, but you chose to omit it. You've rejected a fundamental statement of the word of God, '''''rendering the word of God to no effect by your tradition.''''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:40, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::Let's be clear about who teaches what.<br>The Catholic Church has utterly condemned the [[Pelagianism|Pelagian "gospel of salvation by works"]]. The Church absolutely condemns the idea that salvation can be earned. It can't. Works make faith complete, just as St. James teaches. "Faith without works is dead. You see that a man is '''justified''' by '''works''' and '''not by faith alone.'''<br>'''Anyone''' who says the Catholic Church teaches that salvation must be earned knows nothing, and is seriously guilty of [[Misrepresentation|misrepresenting]] Catholic doctrine with a gross [[falsehood]] against the truth. <br> '''Anyone''' who says that the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus does not save by his blood in baptism through the Catholic Church is guilty of seriously misrepresenting Catholic doctrine with a gross falsehood against the truth. <br> The Catholic Church teaches instead that salvation is <br>'''''solely by the grace and justification of Jesus Christ alone by the power of the Holy Spirit through the [[sacrament]] of baptism [[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|ex opere operato]]'''''. <br> Proof of this is set forth clearly in the [http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm '''''The Catechism of the Catholic Church''''', Part Three: Life in Christ, Section One: Man's Vocation: Life in the Spirit, Chapter Three: God's Salvation: Law and Grace, Article 2: Grace and Justification, I-IV, numbers '''1987-2029'''] - ''citing abundant Bible support'', '''Rom 3:22;''' cf. '''6:3-4; Rom 6:8-11;''' Cf. '''1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4; Mt 4:17; Rom 3:21-26; Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16; Rom 6:19, 22; Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 2:7-9; Jn 4:14; 7:38-39; 2 Cor 5:17-18; Rom 12:6-8; Mt 7:20; Rom 8:28-30; Mt 5:48;''' Cf. '''2 Tim 4; Rev 21:2; Mt 16:24.''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:24, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::You're a day late and dollar short. You're already on record claiming that a work - physical baptism - is necessary for salvation. That's what this whole discussion has been about. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 18:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::God does the work of salvation in baptism through the power of the Holy Spirit in [[sacrament]]al water baptism which He ordained as the ordinary means of salvation ''[[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|ex opere operato]]'', not man.--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:45, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::Secondly, elsewhere on this page you asked, "Where does it say the church can't save?" I responded by saying even the Catholic church does not teach that the church can save. You just dug out church teaching:
:::::::::''The Catholic Church teaches instead that salvation is '''solely''' by the grace and justification of '''Jesus Christ alone''' by the power of the Holy Spirit through baptism.
::::::::To answer your latest posting, you've insisted that the physical work of water baptism is necessary for salvation. Both the Bible and the confused doctrine of men you cite refute you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 18:55, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::You very cleverly distorted, contradicted and falsified the teaching in [http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#819 '''CCC 819''' "Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of '''salvation'''".] --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 19:27, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::Read your own posting. It says Christ saves, not the church. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 19:37, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::To put it bluntly - baptism does not save. Only the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ saves. All else is another gospel, ''which is no gospel at all. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 19:02, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::To put it bluntly - "baptism saves you now" 1 Peter 3:21. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 19:27, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::So which is it? the work of Christ or work of a believer who is baptized that saves? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 19:33, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::'''Both:''' Christ and the baptizer in one body. '''The sanctifying work of Christ through baptism.''' "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that '''he''' might '''sanctify''' her, having '''cleansed''' her by the '''washing of water ''with'' the word''', that '''he''' might present the church '''to himself''' in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be '''holy''' and without blemish." Ephesians 5:25-27. "'''He saved us''', not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, '''by the [http://biblehub.com/greek/3067.htm λουτρού water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit'''] which he '''poured out upon us''' richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be '''justified''' by '''his''' grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." Titus 3:5-7. "Except a person be '''born of water and the Spirit''', a person cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5.<br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:22, 3 November 2019 (EST)<br>
::::::::::::Huh? Why is it so difficult to answer a simple question (and for good measure, you toss in ''washing of water with the word'', again). You know good and well that only the shed blood of Jesus and his resurrection brings our salvation. You also know salvation is by the grace of God, and cannot be earned by works. Why can't you just say that? Stop refuting God, and denying God's work, and making the claim that your salvation is dependent on an action on YOUR part. That, is ''another gospel, which is no gospel at all.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 22:43, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::[added later] ''Why can't you just say that? '' ''with the mouth one confesses and is saved.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 08:11, 5 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::Three scriptural texts demonstrate that it is Christ himself doing the work of baptism for '''salvation''' directly '''through''' the members of his Church by what they do in obedience to his will in baptism, which he himself ordained as the ordinary means of salvation.—"Now '''you are the body of Christ''' and individually members of it." 1 Corinthians 12:27. "for '''God is at work in you''', both to will and to '''work''' for his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13. "There is '''one body and one Spirit''', just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, '''one baptism''', one God and Father of us all, who is above all and '''through all and in all'''." Ephesians 4:4-6. "'''Go therefore''' and make disciples of all nations, '''baptizing''' them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you '''always''', to the end of the world. Matthew 28:19-10.--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:54, 3 November 2019 (EST) (this edit was prepared ready to post just before discovering at the same time an edit conflict by the following edits by RobSmith below)
:::::::::::::Here's a good refutation of the 1 Peter 3:21 citation as meaning you need to be baptized to be saved: [https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-1Peter-3-21.html] --[[User:1990'sguy|1990'sguy]] ([[User talk:1990'sguy|talk]]) 22:47, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::::That is very good. The problem is, it is lost on someone who does not understand what salvation is in the first place.
::::::::::::::God does not need our help for '''''anything'''''. God does not need man to interpret what he says. God does not need us to perform a ritual cause Jesus' death and resurrection isn't quite sufficient. God didn't need David to build a house for him. God didn't need Abraham to sleep with Hagar to speed God's promise of a son along. When we do God these 'favors' to help him along, cause God evidently is incapable of performing some tasks, is when we get into trouble.
::::::::::::::{inserted later] Another example is Moses: God told him to strike the rock once, but he figured God needed a little help or wasn't clear in his instructions, and in anger gave it a few more whacks.
::::::::::::::It is foolishness to speak of baptism when you do not even know what faith, grace, or salvation is. First things first. Let this be a lesson to students. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 23:26, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::I was baptized by water and the Spirit, but I didn't do it. Therefore my salvation was not dependent on an action on MY part. You keep insisting that we baptize ourselves and do the work ourselves. No. I did nothing. Jesus did, by washing me with his precious blood in the water of regeneration. Sacramental baptism is done to us and for us by Jesus Christ Himself by water and the Spirit. No Christian, Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic does the work to save himself. None of us baptized ourselves. If you still think baptism is a work I did to myself to be saved you are wrong. I didn't do it. Baptism by water and the Spirit is the supreme grace of God. Pure gift bestowed. No one can earn it for himself, and no one can do it to himself or for himself. It's done to us, not by us. Baptism is not a work of our own salvation. It's the work of Jesus by his blood. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:38, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” – Baptism now '''saves''' you. John 3:5; 1 Peter 3:21. Plain and simple, easy to understand. But you still just don't get it. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:53, 3 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::::::Ok. Very Good. Let's back up now.
::::::::::::::::Why do we need salvation? (Note: My question is "Why do we need salvation?", not "Why do we need baptism?"). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 23:48, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::Why? <br>“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, '''he cannot enter the kingdom of God'''.” – Baptism now '''saves''' you. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:57, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::Why do we need salvation? <br>“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, '''he cannot enter the kingdom of God'''.” – Baptism now '''saves''' you. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:57, 3 November 2019 (EST)<br>Why do we need salvation? <br>'''God is not willing that any should perish!''' 2 Peter 3:9. The '''promise''' is to you '''and to your children.''' Acts 2:39 --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:04, 4 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::::::::Does sin have anything to do with it? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 00:00, 4 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::::::::Ok, so you told me ''how'' to enter the Kingdom of God, but you didn't tell me anything about the need to confess my sins (''If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins'') Why do I need salvation? What am I being saved from? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 00:14, 4 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::::The Catholic Church can tell you, all based on the Bible. It's all set forth clearly in the [http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm '''''The Catechism of the Catholic Church''''', Part Three: Life in Christ, Section One: Man's Vocation: Life in the Spirit, Chapter Three: God's Salvation: Law and Grace, Article 2: Grace and Justification, I-IV, numbers '''1987-2029'''] - ''citing abundant Bible support'', '''Rom 3:22;''' cf. '''6:3-4; Rom 6:8-11;''' Cf. '''1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4; Mt 4:17; Rom 3:21-26; Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16; Rom 6:19, 22; Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 2:7-9; Jn 4:14; 7:38-39; 2 Cor 5:17-18; Rom 12:6-8; Mt 7:20; Rom 8:28-30; Mt 5:48;''' Cf. '''2 Tim 4; Rev 21:2; Mt 16:24.'''<br>If you have a teachable spirit, you will have your answers. “Go thou and learn." [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1%20Corinthians%208%3A2 '''1 Corinthians 8:2'''] <br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:45, 4 November 2019 (EST)<br>(you weren't willing to wait)
::::::::::::::::::::I already told you I know it's in there, somewhere. But God's message of salvation has gotten lost among doctrines of men. Do yourself a favor, don't preach on baptism until you can explain what salvation is and why people need it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 01:23, 4 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::Ok, I'll answer for you (since the answer is one or two words and I don't feel like waiting two hours to see you spam the page again with more irrelevant nonsense).
:::::::::::::::::Sin.
:::::::::::::::::Alternatively, some might say the ''wrath of God'', which is equally correct.
:::::::::::::::::''For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.'' (Romans 10:10, where this whole discussion began). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 00:30, 4 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::::::::[https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2014%3A7 Proverbs 14:7] <br> “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, '''he cannot enter the kingdom of God'''.” <br> Baptism now '''saves''' you. <br> This grace was given to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery of God who created all things; that '''through the Church''' the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ephesians 3:8-11. <br> Know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of God, '''the pillar and bulwark of the truth'''. 1 Timothy 3:15 <br> Your interminable argument is not with me but with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. '''[https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%208%3A33] [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A42]''' <br> You cannot win. I have helped you all I can, but you still just don't get it. Now I must attend to far more important matters. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:28, 4 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::::Bingo. You got it. My argument is with the Pharisaical traditions of the Catholic church, as Christ's were with the scribes and Pharisees of his day. ''Making the word of God to no effect'', ''preaching another gospel which is no gospel at all.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 01:47, 4 November 2019 (EST)
=====Romans 10:9-10, again=====
:''if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.''
*''believe in thine heart'' - faith.
*''confess with thy mouth'' - the only action required on your part.
This is true repentance - i.e. a change of heart and change of mind about (a) sin, (b) what God says about sin, (c) God, (d) what God says about Himself. The moment you confess (i.e. vocalize) these spiritual truths from a sincere heart, you become resurrected from the dead and are spiritually born. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 01:08, 4 November 2019 (EST)
::Ok. So you deny the authority of scripture. Now all you have is are the doctrines of men. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 22:21, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
:::All of my citations of scripture prove that I accept the authority of scripture. It is you who have rejected all the evidence cited from the Bible. You have closed your heart to the word of God. That is my final word. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 22:30, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
::::True (all are from scripture). Now go back and re-read 1 Corinthians chapter 2. Then answer the question, ''Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?'' (the term "gospel" is a Greek word which does not appear anywhere in the Old Testament Hebrew). Then re-read Exodus 30-33, and see how (1) Moses saw God, (2) Moses had the mind of Christ, (3) Moses offered himself as a sacrifice for the sin of the people but God rejected his offer, (4) Moses was '''saved''' by grace.
::::''ye are not under the law, but under grace''.
::::Now, there are carnal Christians (1 Cor 3:3) and baby Christians (I call them milk and cookie Christians 1 Pet 2:2); then there are meat and potato Christians (Heb 5:14 ''strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil''). Carnal Christians and baby Christians are basically the same thing - they still wrestle with the doctrine of '''salvation''' by grace versus law keeping. They think faith is a work or a task that they must perform to attain '''salvation'''. But I'm getting way ahead of myself here.
::::Forget baptism, for now. Answer these questions:
::::*What is faith?
::::*What is '''salvation'''?
::::*What is God's grace?
::::Once we have an understanding of these, then we can discuss baptism. Water baptism ''does not'' give anyone an understanding of these key concepts. Spiritual baptism can accelerate the process. But dogged pride, study, and learning can get you there, too. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 00:28, 3 November 2019 (EDT)
::::Answer these questions above; don't spam the page with own comments. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 07:26, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Dataclarifier: Your inability to address these three questions harkens back to Hebrews chapter 3:
:''They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.''
:''For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.''
This is your gospel of '''salvation''' based on baptism, ''they have not known my ways...some, when they heard [the Word of God] did provoke. ''
And that 's what your gospel of infant baptism produces - people who do not know God's word and could care less, and think they are '''saved''' because someone performed some magic abracadabra ritual over them at birth - No different than the chosen who told Jesus ''We be not born of fornication . We be Abraham seed'', in their pride thinking they are legitimate heirs of '''salvation''' by birthright.
[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 11:04, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::Romans was not addressed to those outside the family of God: <br> "'''To all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.'''" Rm 1:7
::::::Clarification: The first seven chapters of Romans ''refers'' to those outside the family of God; chapter 8 onwards refers to those who are ''in Christ''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 07:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::(RobS) "''So no, those who are '''saved''' by grace shall '''''not''''' be repaid according to their works.''"
:::::You have just contradicted the Word of God, and condemned yourself.<br>(''He has since moved the edit in which he made this self-condemning assertion, quoted by me here, but he did not remove my directly relevant response, and thus leaving it without a context for the reader to evaluate properly as making any sense.)--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::Then explain the meaning of the parable at Matthew chapter 20 (the parable of the householder). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 07:38, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::*For he will render to '''every''' man according to his '''works''': to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are [[Schism|factious]] and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for '''every one who does good''', the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
:::::::Ok, let's digress momentarily. Paul preached a Universal or Catholic gospel (''God shows no partiality''). The first century was marked by racism (''We be Abraham's seed, not born of fornication''). People thought they were entitled to God's grace and '''salvation''' based on birth. Others, like Peter, accepted lowlife gentile scum as being equals ''in Christ'' (''Call not thou unclean what God has made clean'') yet still had problems sitting down to eat with them. Even Jesus said in the parable of the Greek woman, ''I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel''. But Paul clarifies, using Johm 3:16, '''''Whosoever''''', regardless of race sex, national origin, etc.
:::::::You're taking what is a primary Catholic doctrine, that those outside the Covenants of Abraham and David, can be ''grafted in'' to the family of God, and perverting it into a universal doctrine of Law, ''which is no gospel at all''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 09:00, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::*You see that a man is '''justified''' by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
:::::::This has been debated to death. James says works are evidence of faith. Nowhere does James say you are '''''saved''''' by works. It's basically a discussion of the practical (James) versus the theoretical (Paul). James is rebuking carnal Christians - people who are Christian in name only - and have not fully put their trust in Christ. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 09:07, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::*Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. Revelation 22:12. <br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:17, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::Yep. To those grafted in, '''salvation''' from judgement. To those who reject God's grace, judgement. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 09:07, 3 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::We've been over this:
::::::::Rom. 4:15 ''the law worketh wrath''
::::::::Rom. 5:9 ''having now been '''justified''' by His blood, we shall be '''saved from the wrath''' of God through Him.''
:::::::[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 07:13, 3 November 2019 (EST)
===Wrath vs. grace===
This point is crucial and needs revisiting.
Those who are under grace are not under wrath. Those who are saved by grace are saved from wrath. This is the doctrine of salvation. To claim that God shall repay all men "according to their works" is not the gospel of grace. It is preaching a gospel of wrath, ''which is no gospel at all''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 10:32, 4 November 2019 (EST)
==A word on pride==
It is pride, the original sin, that hinders us and keeps us from the doctrine of grace. Pride makes us believe that there must be something that we can do to aid God in obtaining our salvation. Rather than accept the finished work of Christ, our pride does not let us humble ourselves before the cross. We insert exceptions, "yes, Jesus saves, contingent upon (insert exception, such as church teaching, water baptism, etc etc etc)", ''rendering the Word of God to no effect through man made church doctrine,'' changing the unfettered doctrine of grace, which requires us to humble ourselves and put away pride, into a doctrine of law and bring us again under subjection to God's wrath. This is that ''other gospel'' Paul warned of, ''which is no gospel at all''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 10:36, 5 November 2019 (EST)
== [[Debate: Infant baptism]] ==
== [[Debate: Infant baptism]] ==