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Talk:Infant baptism (view source)
Revision as of 06:51, November 18, 2019
, 06:51, November 18, 2019→Salvation: Why do tou keep removing this?
::Rejection of scripture written by men who were sent by the Lord, is rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by the Father, and rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by God is rejection of the Lord who sent Him ([http://biblehub.com/luke/10-16.htm Luke 10:16]; [http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-40.htm Matthew 10:40]; [http://biblehub.com/luke/9-48.htm Luke 9:48]; [http://biblehub.com/john/13-20.htm John 13:20]; [http://biblehub.com/luke/9-48.htm 12:48]). The full context of the teaching of the Bible itself according to the whole of the first sixteen centuries of consistent Christian understanding of '''salvation''' through the blood of Christ alone, poured out by the Holy Spirit of Christ ([https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8%3A9-11&version=KJV Romans 8:9-11]) in baptism with water ([http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-6.htm 1 John 5:6]; [http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-11.htm 1 Corinthians 6:11]; [http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-5.htm Revelation 1:5]), was the reason the whole Christian Church, Catholic, Orthodox and mainstream Protestant ''together'', guided by the Holy Spirit ([http://biblehub.com/john/14-16.htm John 14:16] and [http://biblehub.com/john/14-26.htm 26]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+16%3A13-14&version=KJV 16:13-14]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+28%3A19-20&version=KJV Matthew 28:19-20]), condemned the credobaptism doctrine of the [[Anabaptists]] and [[Baptist]]s as a doctrine of Satan himself. What they say I say with them. This is my final answer. You will not hear from me again on this page. <br> [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/29-9.htm Proverbs 28:9] — also [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/18-1.htm 18:1]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/20-3.htm 20:3]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/22-10.htm 22:10]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/26-12.htm 26:12]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/27-3.htm 27:3]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/30-5.htm 30:5].<br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:42, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
::Rejection of scripture written by men who were sent by the Lord, is rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by the Father, and rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by God is rejection of the Lord who sent Him ([http://biblehub.com/luke/10-16.htm Luke 10:16]; [http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-40.htm Matthew 10:40]; [http://biblehub.com/luke/9-48.htm Luke 9:48]; [http://biblehub.com/john/13-20.htm John 13:20]; [http://biblehub.com/luke/9-48.htm 12:48]). The full context of the teaching of the Bible itself according to the whole of the first sixteen centuries of consistent Christian understanding of '''salvation''' through the blood of Christ alone, poured out by the Holy Spirit of Christ ([https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8%3A9-11&version=KJV Romans 8:9-11]) in baptism with water ([http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-6.htm 1 John 5:6]; [http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-11.htm 1 Corinthians 6:11]; [http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-5.htm Revelation 1:5]), was the reason the whole Christian Church, Catholic, Orthodox and mainstream Protestant ''together'', guided by the Holy Spirit ([http://biblehub.com/john/14-16.htm John 14:16] and [http://biblehub.com/john/14-26.htm 26]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+16%3A13-14&version=KJV 16:13-14]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+28%3A19-20&version=KJV Matthew 28:19-20]), condemned the credobaptism doctrine of the [[Anabaptists]] and [[Baptist]]s as a doctrine of Satan himself. What they say I say with them. This is my final answer. You will not hear from me again on this page. <br> [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/29-9.htm Proverbs 28:9] — also [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/18-1.htm 18:1]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/20-3.htm 20:3]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/22-10.htm 22:10]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/26-12.htm 26:12]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/27-3.htm 27:3]; [http://biblehub.com/proverbs/30-5.htm 30:5].<br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:42, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
===Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?===
:Very well. Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+4:2-4&version=KJV Hebs: 4:2] [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:59, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
::Erroneous links have been corrected. My sincerest apology for access error. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:52, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
:::So, was the gospel preached to Israel in wilderness?
:::Remember, ''death reigned from Adam to Moses'' (Rom. 5:14). Are you arguing that Law gave life? Or was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? <br> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:23, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
::::[https://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/4-2.htm] [http://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-19.htm] [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1260.htm] --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:08, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::So, I'll take that as being affirmative. The gospel was indeed preached to Israel in the wilderness. What gospel was preached? the gospel of grace? the gospel of salvation? the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 18:25, 28 October 2019 (EDT)<br>
::::::''It wasn't affirmative.'' If you had read the links I provided you would have seen the answer was not affirmative. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:45, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::I took it as affirmative when you re-posted my link to Hebrews 4:2 above, and a quotation from some ''Pascal teaching''. Yes or no, ''Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?'' Use scripture to support your claims, not Pharisaical traditions. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 18:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::Two clues:
::::::Exodus 33:12: ''And Moses said unto the Lord, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and '''thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me.'''''
::::::John 5:39: ''Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.'' Also,
::::::Luke 24:44 ''These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.''
:::::So what are we to conclude? The Gospel of salvation by grace was preached to Israel in the wilderness ''before'' the Law of Moses was given. But they could not enter in because of disbelief. Because of rejection of God's grace, and God's salvation, they were given Law. And the Law cannot give life. The Law cannot save.
:::::Salvation is by grace, through faith. Baptism (other than spiritual baptism), i.e. baptism in the flesh, had nothing to do with it.
:::::If you want to dispute this, show me where Moses preached water baptism? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 21:24, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+30%3A17-21&version=KJV] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Exodus%2019%3A10] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2016%3A24] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2022%3A6] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Numbers%208%3A21] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Numbers%2019%3A12] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+23%3A10-11&version=KJV] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+29&version=KJV] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+40&version=KJV] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+8&version=KJV] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+14&version=KJV] [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms+51&version=KJV] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2022%3A29] <br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 23:59, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::''The law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.''
:::::::So, you cited a bunch of texts from the Law of Moses; but that doesn't answer the question. You haven't provided anything to answer ''What is salvation?'', or an understanding of grace. All you've done is post Mosaic Law and church doctrine.
::::::::''That which is flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit''.
::::::::''The natural man cannot understand the things of God.''
:::::::You're proving the truth of the Word of God by evading a simple question, clinging to Law and church doctrine, and ignoring the gospel of grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 00:26, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19] [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1257] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2022%3A29] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2015%3A14] [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Peter%203%3A17]--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:40, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::More church doctrine, ''rendering the word of God to no effect.''
::::::::::IOWs, Moses set before the people a choice between God's Law and God's grace. The people chose Law (''and their carcasses fell in the wilderness'').
:::::::::::Rom. 7:10: ''And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.''
:::::::::::Rom. 4:15: ''For the law brings wrath''
:::::::::::Rom. 8:6: ''to be carnally minded'' [the natural man] ''is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.''
:::::::::::Rom. 5:9 ''having now been justified by His blood, we shall be '''saved from the wrath of God''' through Him.''
::::::::::You're just preaching wrath and law, not the gospel of life, peace, and grace. A gospel of works, '''which is no gospel at all'' (Gal. 1:7).
::::::::::The early Apostles had this debate, ''Ye must be circumcised'', the same as "ye must be physically baptized." ''Circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter'' (Rom. 2:29). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 01:08, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::Oh, and there is no "going forth unto the nations" if you don't know what the gospel of salvation by grace is. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 01:12, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::''The flesh profiteth nothing''. Let me be more specific - baptism in the flesh profiteth nothing. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 12:04, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
===Were any Old Testament figures '''saved''' by grace or baptism?===
===Were any Old Testament figures '''saved''' by grace or baptism?===