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Talk:Infant baptism (view source)
Revision as of 21:58, November 26, 2019
, 21:58, November 26, 2019→Comparison with Islam
:::::Your requirement of ''repentance'', a change of heart or change of mind, which must be spoken with the mouth, and admitted by the issue of words, excludes from the possibility of salvation all newborns, infants, and children in arms who die, who are incapable of understanding, let alone competent to express ''repentance'', a change of heart or change of mind, which must be spoken with the mouth, and admitted by the issue of words, especially since "there is none righteous, no not one", and "all have sinned". The regeneration of baptism by water and the Spirit for these "while we were helpless" saves them now. That is the unmerited grace of salvation in Christ through the gracious gift of baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 15:25, 24 November 2019 (EST)
:::::Your requirement of ''repentance'', a change of heart or change of mind, which must be spoken with the mouth, and admitted by the issue of words, excludes from the possibility of salvation all newborns, infants, and children in arms who die, who are incapable of understanding, let alone competent to express ''repentance'', a change of heart or change of mind, which must be spoken with the mouth, and admitted by the issue of words, especially since "there is none righteous, no not one", and "all have sinned". The regeneration of baptism by water and the Spirit for these "while we were helpless" saves them now. That is the unmerited grace of salvation in Christ through the gracious gift of baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 15:25, 24 November 2019 (EST)
::::::Everywhere you have denied a spiritual interpretation of biblical texts, and have placed a natuiral interpretation followed up by citations of condemnation for those who are in the flesh (i.e. not spiritually born). You have never defined salvation, grace, or eternal life. You can't answer a simple question that any bible student could answer, or at least show curiosity about - Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?
::::::So now I'm going to do a hard rendition of your misuse of scripture and demonstrate to readers following this discussion where it leads, using John 8:38-45, interspersed with my comments:
{{cquote|38 ''I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.''
39 ''They answered and said unto him, '''Abraham is our father'''. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.''
*Fully expounded by Paul in Romans and Galatians.
40 ''But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.''
41 ''Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, '''We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.'''''
* Denial of the spiritual, and these would-be heirs of salvation emphasis on the natural.
42 ''Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.''
*I chose the Book of John way back at the start of this discussion, beginning at Chapter 1 verse 27, which leads you back to Exodus chapter 33 and the Gospel of Grace - "and the scripture cannot be broken"
43 ''Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.''
44 '''''Ye are of your father the devil''', and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.''
*Your insistence upon placing a natural or fleshly interpretation on the term "water" at every juncture, is the same misuse of scripture that [[Nazi]]s and [[neo-Nazi]]s use in interpreting this scripture, claiming that Jesus called Jews "children of the devil." It is those whose foundation of faith is a belief that a ritual ceremony performed over them at birth made them heirs of salvation, whom Jesus referred to as ''children of the devil''.
45 ''And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.''}}
::::Jesus clearly teaches that spiritual birth is not by natural birth or any family tradition. Being lucky enough to be born into a family tradition that honors God entitles you to nothing. The blessings of Abraham, and being an heir of salvation, are not bestowed by a ritual ceremony, such as circumcision or baptism, at natural birth.
== RobS's position, simplified ==
== RobS's position, simplified ==