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Talk:Infant baptism (view source)
Revision as of 22:49, December 15, 2019
, 22:49, December 15, 2019→Talk page is becoming repetitive and non-productive at this point
:If the parties are not going to work something out, then let the parties move on and work on other articles. Nothing productive is happening at this point. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 01:38, 29 November 2019 (EST)
:If the parties are not going to work something out, then let the parties move on and work on other articles. Nothing productive is happening at this point. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 01:38, 29 November 2019 (EST)
::I think we've established, via Dataclarifier's own words, his doctrine and will make readers a twofold follower of hell. That is positive, in a sense. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 11:02, 29 November 2019 (EST)
::I think we've established, via Dataclarifier's own words, his doctrine and will make readers a twofold follower of hell. That is positive, in a sense. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 11:02, 29 November 2019 (EST)
== Dataclarifier's post on my talk page ==
=== Earliest historical mention of infant baptism: A.D. 185===
The earliest explicit mention of infant baptism is found A.D. 185 in [[Irenaeus]], ''Against Heresies'', Book II, Chapter 22:4.<ref>[http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103222.htm Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 22) - Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.org)] ''scroll down to paragraph 4''.</ref>
{{cquote|For He came to save all through means of Himself — all, I say, who through Him are '''born again''' to God — '''infants''', and children, and boys, and youths, and old men. He therefore passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, thus sanctifying infants; a child for children, thus sanctifying those who are of this age, being at the same time made to them an example of piety, righteousness, and submission; a youth for youths, becoming an example to youths, and thus sanctifying them for the Lord. (<small>''boldface emphasis added''</small>)}}This '''born again''' is a direct reference to John 3:3-5:{{cquote|<sup>3</sup> Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.<br><sup>4</sup> Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?<br><sup>5</sup> Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and ''of'' the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. <br>—[[King James Bible]] (KJV)}}
The Greek New Testament word for "man" here in John is '''τις''' ''tis'' "anyone".<ref>See [http://biblehub.com/greek/5100.htm Strong's number ''5100''. '''τις''' ''tis'' "''some'' or ''any'' person or object:— any ''one''.]</ref>
See [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm interlinear text of John 3:5]. No human being is excluded. Age is not mentioned.
==== 2 things ====
1. I don't think Irenaeus quote is an an explicit water baptism quote. Historical analysis, which is part of Bible exegesis, is often a spectrum of certainty from 0 to 100 percent. And I don't think a slam dunk case can be made for water baptism using the Irenaeus quote. It's not clear what specifically Irenaeus is declaring here.
After all is said and done, I just leave it to God who is going to be saved before they reach and age where it can be argued they can make decision concerning salvation.
Personally, I do believe in the doctrines related to the implications of origin sin.
I do believe in various matters related to the doctrine of total depravity (See: Matthew 7:11/Luke 11:13 and [https://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html Total depravity - is it biblical?] and [https://www.theopedia.com/total-depravity Total depravity - Theopedia] and [https://chadelliott.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/the-breadth-of-a-hair-wesley-on-total-depravity/ The Breadth Of A Hair: John Wesley On Total Depravity].
And as far as Calvinism vs. Arminianism, I know this is true: "John Wesley and Charles Finney were great men of God who took the Arminian position. John Calvin and Charles Spurgeon were great men of God who took the Calvinist position. It is not stupid or immoral or faithless to take either position."[https://www.epm.org/resources/2004/May/1/scriptures-whether-true-christians-can-lose-their-/]
Zondervan Academic states:
{{Cquote|[[Tertullian]] is the earliest to reference to the practice of infant baptism. He advised against it.
The Apostolic Tradition’s description of the ceremony of baptism shows that it was designed for those who were old enough to take an active part.
In fact, the confession of faith was so integral to baptism that, if a person could not confess the faith themselves, parents or someone else in the family would speak on their behalf.
A century after Tertullian, Cyprian advocated for infant baptism, although for many years this remained the exception to the rule of full immersion. Infant baptism did not become routine until the fifth and sixth centuries.<ref>[https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/early-church-infant-baptism-or-full-immersion Did the Early Church Practice Infant Baptism or Full Immersion?], Zondervan Academic</ref>}}
2. As far as John 3:3-5, it is very clear that the first birth of water that Jesus was referring to when talking to Nicodemus is that every person has the first/physical birth which involves the breaking of the water.
Namely, this:
The bursting of the amniotic sac of a mother just prior to childbirth is the birth of "water." We often say of this event, "Her water broke!" Notice in v.6 Jesus reinforces this interpretation when He says, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh," thus linking water with flesh. The flesh-birth is from below; the spiritual, from above."[https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/133/what-does-it-mean-to-be-born-of-water][[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 13:16, 15 December 2019 (EST)
=== Tertullian, '' On Baptism'': A.D. 200 ===
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—Thank you. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 12:11, 15 December 2019 (EST)
=== My reply ===
:Today and henceforth, I decided to focus like a laser beam on some off wiki goals I set for myself.
:I will briefly say that you and RobSmith have not exactly been paragons of the dialectical method or civil discourse when trying to come up with a [[infant baptism]] article. And early on, you wanted to lock the page so no dissenting views could be added. As a result of these two matters, Andy locked the page. I will briefly add that for a short period, I was sucked into the internet drama and responded to your attack on Martin Luther (personally, I think Luther was mixed bag theologically, etc., but obviously being a Protestant, I have some respect for Luther).
:Right now and henceforth, except for replying to you, because of off wiki promises I made to people and other matters, I am being strict when it comes to meeting my goals and in time/project management. So I am being strict when it comes to using the internet constuctively. And right now, I have no desire to engage in any internet drama. I wish you and RobSmith had worked something out, but like they say, "If wishes were fishes, we would all have a fry".
:If you want the [[infant baptism]] article edited and unlocked, the parties of you, RobSmith, 1990sguy, VargasMilan, Shobson20 and Andy Schlafly are going to have to work something out. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 13:34, 15 December 2019 (EST)
::I wish I had more person time to devote to matters outside of the scope of commitments I previously made to people, but this isn't the case. And if I break my promises to people, they are going to be justifiably mad at me. Sometimes it is hard to say no to requests people ask of you, but sometimes this has to be done.[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 13:59, 15 December 2019 (EST)