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→Article completed, request that it be locked: restore; Mark 7:13 ''Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye
::I relied on what I found online at Wikipedia "Infant baptism" and with search "Denominations that practice infant baptism". Both searches provided the statements made in the body of the article re denominations that do not practice infant baptism, for example the "Oneness" groups. I repeated the same information further down, that the credobaptist position condemns to hell the whole specific list of denominations that practice infant baptism. I appreciate what you added and have absolutely no objection to it. However, you seriously misjudged my motive for requesting a lock according to reasons I explained to Andy Schlafly on his talk page regarding the hot-button topic of infant baptism as treated online. He apparently agreed with my reason. The behavior of RobSmith, below, is a perfect example of intrusively prejudicial one-sided editing imbalance that should be kept from a balanced article on such a sensitive doctrinal issue. I wish you well. Thank you, again. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 02:30, 5 November 2019 (EST)
::I relied on what I found online at Wikipedia "Infant baptism" and with search "Denominations that practice infant baptism". Both searches provided the statements made in the body of the article re denominations that do not practice infant baptism, for example the "Oneness" groups. I repeated the same information further down, that the credobaptist position condemns to hell the whole specific list of denominations that practice infant baptism. I appreciate what you added and have absolutely no objection to it. However, you seriously misjudged my motive for requesting a lock according to reasons I explained to Andy Schlafly on his talk page regarding the hot-button topic of infant baptism as treated online. He apparently agreed with my reason. The behavior of RobSmith, below, is a perfect example of intrusively prejudicial one-sided editing imbalance that should be kept from a balanced article on such a sensitive doctrinal issue. I wish you well. Thank you, again. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 02:30, 5 November 2019 (EST)
== "Helpless" babies and sinners - Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19; Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39; 2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22 and John 10:35 ==
Consider the argument that Jesus died to '''save''' the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A11-16%2CRomans+5%3A12-99&version=KJV;RSVCE Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19]. <br> No one is more helpless than the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope [http://biblehub.com/greek/1025.htm '''βρέφη''' ''brephe''] ([http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]). <br> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A6-11%2CRomans+8%3A31-39&version=KJV;RSVCE Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39] <br> Yet Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." <br> Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the fact that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, infant baptism is supported by the Bible. <br> Compare [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A13%2C2+Corinthians+1%3A19-22%2CJohn+10%3A35&version=KJV;RSVCE 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35]. <br> The word "faith" does not appear in any of these passages. Infants without faith and hope and God are helpless, and God '''saves''' them "while they are still helpless" by baptism with water and the word (Ephesians 5:26). <br> Peace be with you. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:53, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
:After careful reflection and consideration, I have decided it would be useful to adapt the comments immediately above into a brief separate article: [[Helpless babies and sinners]]. <br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 09:14, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
::What is '''salvation'''?
::And please, make your response simple enough that an 8 year old child can understand. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 12:01, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
::Let me help you. First, I see you left out the context of Ephesians:
:::2:8 ''By grace are ye '''saved''', through faith, and that not of you own; it is a gift from God.'' - no conditions are placed on grace, other than acceptance. A pardon must be accepted to be valid.
::But you are citing it in your second reference,
:::Romans 5:15: ''But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man'' - again, a gift with no conditions.
::So grace is a free gift of God - with no conditions (i.e. such as baptism). And '''salvation''' is by grace.
::The only condition for '''salvation''' is acceptance of the gift. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:48, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
::Your argument seems to be that '''salvation''' is some future event, '' after'' life in the flesh. To discuss any of this, you need to (1) define '''salvation'''; (2) explain why '''salvation''' is not for the here and now. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:00, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
:::'''[[Salvation]]''' is [[eternal life]] instead of death, given by [[baptism]] now. Simple.<br>The gift of unmerited '''salvation''' which gives eternal life is directly bestowed by the regeneration of baptism ([http://biblehub.com/titus/3-5.htm Titus 3:5]) "which '''saves''' you ''now''" ([http://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-21.htm 1 Peter 3:21]) [[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|''ex opere operato'']], through the ministry of others not of themselves "on behalf of Christ" ([http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-18.htm 2 Corinthians 5:18]), on behalf of the same Lord Jesus Christ who does the actual work of the [[sacrament]] himself through his blood ([http://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-2.htm 1 Peter 1:2]), in accordance with the established doctrinal condition demanded by the Lord Jesus Christ himself, "Except a man (Gr '''τις''' ''tis'' "anyone") be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." [http://biblehub.com/john/3-5.htm John 3:5]. This is the free gift of God—with the condition that the Lord himself laid down to be '''saved'''. Jesus sanctifies and cleanses "by the washing of water with the word" ([http://biblehub.com/ephesians/5-26.htm Ephesians 5:26]). He commanded baptism in [http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-19.htm Matthew 28:19]. <br>"Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do what I command?" ([http://biblehub.com/luke/6-46.htm Luke 6:46]; [http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-21.htm Matthew 7:21]; [http://biblehub.com/john/15-10.htm John 15:10]). <br> Jesus does this from love for a purpose ([http://biblehub.com/john/3-17.htm John 3:17]; [http://biblehub.com/ephesians/1-5.htm Ephesians 1:5]; [http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-19.htm Matthew 28:19]). <br>'''Salvation''' is the rescue of the soul, by the cleansing blood of Christ on the cross ([http://biblehub.com/1_john/1-7.htm 1 John 1:7]) through the washing of water with the word, that the soul might be born again (regenerated) by water and the Spirit, '''saved ''from''''' the everlasting ruin of sin, '''saved ''for''''' "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." ([http://biblehub.com/romans/2-7.htm Romans 2:7]; [http://biblehub.com/1_john/3-7.htm 1 John 3:7]; [http://biblehub.com/james/2-24.htm James 2:24]). Babies '''saved''' by the '''salvation''' of baptism grow up to serve the Lord by the power of the grace bestowed through '''salvation''' by regeneration, by the washing of water with the word, born again by water and the Spirit, buried with him in baptism—'''saved''' from the wrath to come on those who are not cleansed of their sin ([http://biblehub.com/1_john/3-10.htm 1 John 3:10]; [http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/7-1.htm 2 Corinthians 7:1]; [http://biblehub.com/revelation/20-15.htm Revelation 20:15]; [http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-14.htm 22:14][http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-15.htm -15]). The essence of '''salvation''', and the result of '''salvation''', bestowed on the helpless sinner is a '''partaking of the divine nature''' ([http://biblehub.com/2_peter/1-4.htm 2 Peter 1:4]) by the everlasting life of God in Christ Jesus poured out on the helpless soul ([http://biblehub.com/romans/5-6.htm Romans 5:6]) by "water and the Spirit", and the [[eucharist]], which bestows the "life that now is and is to come" [http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-8.htm 1 Timothy 4:8]. <br> Read the article [http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp239.htm Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone ''because of their faith?'' - Let Us Reason Ministries (letusreason.org)]. <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 03:10, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
::::Ok. A rather full, complete response. Now, ''When does '''salvation''' begin?''
::::And you know my next question, ''Can a person loose their '''salvation'''?'' ''Is God's promise of '''salvation''' limited?'' ''Can "'''salvation''' by baptism" be lost? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 12:46, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::'''Salvation begins with baptism'''. See the [[Catechism of the Catholic Church]], [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1213 '''1213-1284'''] and [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#1987 '''1987-2029''']. God loves the whole world so much (John 3:16-17) that he is "not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9. The doctrine that '''salvation''' can be lost, that it can be rescinded, revoked and forfeited by mortal sin, is covered in the article '''[[Eternal security (salvation)]]'''. Abundant supporting Bible passages regarding the danger of losing '''salvation''' are listed and quoted there. It is also already adequately covered here in this article [[Infant baptism]]. From your question above, you either forgot the material covered in the article here, which fully answers your question, or you did not actually read it. If you did read it, please read it again. ([http://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-15.htm 1&nbap; Peter 3:15])
:::::(''by the way, you misspelled "lose", as in lost. "loose" is to release, set free, unfasten.'') <br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 17:22, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::Baptism does not '''save'''. The blood of Jesus '''saves'''. And eternal life does not mean eternal life, I suppose; God must be a liar, then. And you nullify the doctrine of grace and and death of Jesus if you think mortal sin can undo the work of Christ.
::::::Who needs Jesus? and what did he die for? if we are still judged by our works (being baptized) or mortal sins? Grace, I suppose is non-existent. And when God promised eternal life, it wasn't contingent on God's sacrifice of his Son, but still on your own works is what you are preaching.
::::::''This people worships me with their lips, but their heart is far from me, teaching as commandments the doctrines of men''
::::::See also Mark chapter 7: ''“You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!....13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”''
::::::Let me point out the obvious error - ''without shedding of blood there is no remission''. Baptism is by water, not of blood. You are offering a bloodless sacrifice of your works, rejecting the work of Christ, to establish your own tradition.. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:43, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::[http://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-21.htm 1 Peter 3:21 "'''baptism doth also now ''save'' us.'''"] —You deny this.
:::::::[http://biblehub.com/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "'''Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born''' (regenerated) '''of water and ''of'' the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'''"] —You contradict this.
:::::::[http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-26.htm Hebrews 10:26 "if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."]
:::::::[http://biblehub.com/2_peter/2-20.htm 2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."] —You deny this.
:::::::[http://biblehub.com/2_peter/3-17.htm 2 Peter 3:17 "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."] —You deny this warning.
:::::::[http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/10-12.htm 1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."] —You deny this danger.
:::::::[http://biblehub.com/2_john/1-8.htm 2 John 8 "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward."]
:::::::[http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/6-3.htm 1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, ''even'' the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"] [http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/6-4.htm 1 Timothy 6:4 "He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings"] [http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/6-5.htm 1 Timothy 6:5 "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."]
:::::::[http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-14.htm 2 Timothy 2:14 "Of these things put ''them'' in remembrance, charging ''them'' before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, ''but'' to the subverting of the hearers."]
:::::::[http://biblehub.com/titus/3-9.htm Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."] <br>[http://biblehub.com/titus/3-10.htm Titus 3:10 "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;"] <br>[http://biblehub.com/titus/3-11.htm Titus 3:11 "Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."]
:::::::[http://biblehub.com/mark/7-9.htm Mark 7:9 "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."]
:::::::Rob, you deny scripture for the sake of your tradition. I stand by the Bible. Baptism '''saves''' by the blood of Christ. And Christian believers must be careful not to lose their reward. James 5:19-20. <br> ''Semper Fi ! '' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:56, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::It is the blood of Christ that '''saves''', not water baptism. Eternal life means eternal life. ''While we yet sinners (helpless), Christ died.'' There is nothing you can do to '''save''' your self, other than faith in the finished work of Christ. ''For by grace are ye '''saved''''', not baptism. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 19:12, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::[http://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-21.htm 1 Peter 3:21 "'''baptism doth also now ''save'' us.'''"]
:::::::::[http://biblehub.com/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "'''Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born''' (regenerated) '''of water and ''of'' the Spirit, he <big>cannot</big> enter into the kingdom of God.'''"] <br> I will not debate this further. It is evident you contradict the Bible. A perfect example of [[Confirmation bias]] and [[Fallacy of invincible ignorance]]. I will die before I ever deny the word of Jesus Christ. <br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 19:33, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::One flaw: I asked ''What is '''salvation'''?'' You responded with church doctrine and church tradition, ''Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 19:49, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::The Bible says "baptism now '''saves''' us." That's '''salvation'''. Clearly, no debate. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:07, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::''Without shedding of blood there is no remission.'' I suspect the problem is you do not under stand what '''salvation''' is.
::::::::::::Lean what '''salvation''' is first, then we'll talk about being immersed in the word, or baptism in the spirit (same thing). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:12, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
===Salvation===
===Salvation===