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→Soule's A Planned Society
==Victims==
==Victims==
Two questions: Do they have to be dead, or does [[Gen. Michael Flynn]] qualify? If so, is it too early, or do you want to wait til the outcome of his trial (he's going to win, anyway). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:47, 16 September 2019 (EDT)
Two questions: Do they have to be dead, or does [[Gen. Michael Flynn]] qualify? If so, is it too early, or do you want to wait til the outcome of his trial (he's going to win, anyway). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:47, 16 September 2019 (EDT)
:Should we really count JFK as a victim of the Deep State? Ion Mihai Pacepa gave [https://pjmedia.com/culture/ion-mihai-pacepa/2014/04/06/11-reasons-to-reject-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-n151303 pretty] [https://www.wnd.com/2013/11/evidence-shows-kgbs-hand-in-jfk-assassination/ convincing] [https://pjmedia.com/culture/ion-mihai-pacepa/2013/11/20/11-facts-that-destroy-jfk-conspiracy-theories-part-three-n147947 evi][https://pjmedia.com/culture/ion-mihai-pacepa/2013/11/20/11-facts-that-destroy-jfk-conspiracy-theories-part-two-n147945 den][https://pjmedia.com/culture/ion-mihai-pacepa/2013/11/20/11-facts-that-destroy-jfk-conspiracy-theories-part-one-n147943 ce] that it was in fact the Soviets and/or their proxies who had been behind JFK's murder (besides, last I checked, the Deep State would have wanted the UN to be in charge, and JFK actually encouraged the UN in one of his speeches. Somehow, I don't think they'd just kill the guy who would solidify the UN for them [not saying that JFK himself believes in the deep state, just that he could have been manipulated by them]). [[User:Pokeria1|Pokeria1]] ([[User talk:Pokeria1|talk]]) 22:01, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
::Well, I don't think you understand the politics of the time. If the Soviets were behind it, we wouldn't be here today cause we all would have perished in a nuclear holocaust back then. It might sound realistic to a generation not exposed to the factual history, but there have literally been tens of thousands of researchers who have dedicated to their lives to researching this subject since then. In fact, the term "Deep State" (according to my sources) originated among JFK assassination researchers (I previously was of the opinion the term had a much more recent post-9/11 origin). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 22:32, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
::Your conspiracy theory sounds like a modern day conspiracy theory generated by the Deep State to take the heat off the Deep State. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 22:37, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
:::Maybe so, but on the other hand, these are the same guys who successfully managed to outright frame the Nazis for the [[Katyn massacre]] (with nothing pinning the Soviets to the crime among the general populace until 1991 with the Mitokyn Archives being leaked), so I wouldn't underestimate their capabilities for disinformation. Besides, they also were responsible for turning Che Guevara, a guy who, BTW, literally attempted to turn the Cold War into a hot one during the Cuban Missile Crisis against even Khrushchev's advice, into a leftist saint overnight (and that definitely would have been a far bigger black mark against them ESPECIALLY after the Cuban Missile Crisis and how close they got to nuclear war), and also were responsible for forming the anti-Vietnam Protests. And Ion Mihai Pacepa was directly involved in the disinformation campaigns for all three instances, even dedicated an entire chapter of his book ''Disinformation'', so if anyone knows about JFK being assassinated by the Soviets, or at the very least their proxies, it's him. And besides, that Wolfe guy, the East German spymaster, specifically indicated that Fidel Castro had a hand in JFK's assassination as well. And considering that LBJ basically had a tantrum when the Joint Chiefs of Staff suggested mining the harbor and doing calculated aerial strikes against the North Vietnamese that essentially amounted to accusing them of trying to start World War III, wouldn't the prospect of nuclear war if the truth got out been reason enough for the government at the time to AVOID pinning the blame on the Soviets, especially after the close call at Cuba two years before?
:::And technically, it's not even mine, it's Ion Mihai Pacepa's claim (and given that he was a former DIE agent, and specifically indicated that he had been previously involved in said disinformation campaigns by the KGB, it's pretty obvious he's not a Deep Stater. Heck, at the time those things happened, he was still firmly loyal to the Communists, didn't defect until the 1980s). [[User:Pokeria1|Pokeria1]] ([[User talk:Pokeria1|talk]]) 22:39, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
::::All this was investigated back then. The only lesson learned was the danger of the CIA taking a liberal leftwing commie nutcase into its ranks - Oswald - a lesson forgotten when Obama became C-I-C. Do you really suppose the Soviets thought they would have fared better under LBJ in Vietnam than under Kennedy? It wasn't until Nixon that ''detente'' was achieved and nuclear weapons limitation talks began. Soviets never wanted '''any''' kind of an arms race, conventional or nuclear.
::::Then you also have to look at the Soviet domestic situation - the assassination occurred at about the same time as the removal of Khrushchev and the Sino-Soviet split - both having occurred due to what was regarded as Khrushchev's reckless foreign policy over the [[Cuban Missile Crisis]]. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 22:48, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
:::::Like I said, take it up with Lt. General Ion Mihai Pacepa, since he was the one who insisted that it was a KGB plot (and based on the way he was talking in his book, Disinformation, he had direct involvement in those disinformation campaigns.). Besides, why the heck would they make [https://propagandaguard.wordpress.com/2017/11/08/how-the-kgb-birthed-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-industry/#:~:text=In%20the%20book%2C%20I%20describe%20the%20super%20highly,the%20Soviet%20Union%20just%20days%20before%20killing%20JFK. disinformation campaigns eerily similar to the ones used during Katyn to frame the Nazis via paid for books] like Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy if they were in fact innocent of JFK's assassination (heck, some of the books, including Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy, was even funded directly by the Central Communist Party. There was even a name for that op, Operation Dragon.)? If they were innocent, why do a disinformation campaign to begin with? There's also this article for you to read as well: https://www.groundreport.com/kgbs-hidden-hand-in-president-kennedys-assassination-according-to-former-romanian-foreign-intelligence-chief/ And I wouldn't be so sure the Soviets didn't want that. Let's not forget that the Soviets, not to mention the guy who formed Communism as we know it, Karl Marx, took a lot of odes to the French Revolution, who most certainly loved killing people in the most sickening of ways just for a sick laugh, even did that with Vendee. They most certainly would have supported an arms race just to have an excuse to slaughter more people. To put it another way, the Joker from Batman makes a great communist because of his nihilistic mass murdering tendencies. Heck, going by [https://newcriterion.com/issues/2019/10/leninthink this article], they probably would have used any excuse to kill themselves simply for the sake of it. [[User:Pokeria1|Pokeria1]] ([[User talk:Pokeria1|talk]]) 22:54, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
::::::The Soviets felt they were forced into both conventional and nuclear arms competition by the capitalist world - which retarded their economic growth. They felt paranoid and surrounded. And so were we. That was the Cold War mentality.
::::::Katyn is a whole different subject that pre-dates the CIA and modern Deep State, although Fletcher Prouty's book ''The Secret Team'' bridges the gap. Suffice it say now, U.S. & UK prosecutors at Nuremberg knew it was bogus but went along with the ruse anyway. This is some of the early seeds of distrust that led to the Cold War. But to question the integrity of the Nuremberg Tribunal now borders on holocaust denial. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 23:05, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
:::::::Like I said, Ion Mihai Pacepa disagrees with you, and based on his experience, including being a former DIE agent and the highest-ranking Soviet intelligence operative to EVER defect, he'd KNOW if it was a disinformation op or not, and most certainly wasn't a Deep State operative for the United States back when it occurred. Heck, aside from Operation Dragon (the one dealing with disinformation on JFK's assassination, and aside from ''Disinformation'', Pacepa even covers it in full in the book ''Programmed to Kill: Moscow’s Responsibility for Lee Harvey Oswald’s Assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy'', released in 2012), there's also Operation Che (which turned Che Guevara into a post-mortem leftist celebrity cause, something which would certainly have harmed the Soviets even worse than merely having JFK assassinated before then ESPECIALLY when remembering that Che IS the reason why the Cold War almost turned into all out nuclear war. If they truly were against entering an arms race of any sort, they most certainly would not have promoted Che Guevara as the ultimate hero for various leftists ESPECIALLY after the CMC. If anything, Che's actions, which he even bragged about in the London Daily Worker afterward in what he believed was off-the-record, is the very DEFINITION of an arms race.) and Operation Aries (which caused the anti-Vietnam protests), all of which also occurred around the same time. And as far as the Soviets, they would have used any excuse to enter conventional and nuclear arms competition anyways, since they from the very onset were basically the French Revolution 2.0, which sought to just cause carnage for carnage's sake, as you could see with the Vendee massacres, the September Massacres, and the Reign of Terror, not to mention even Vladimir Lenin explicitly compared the Bolsheviks' own actions to those of the Jacobins, up to and including the Reign of Terror, and it's safe to say that Stalin and even Khrushchev ultimately bought into that view as well. Heck, immediately after consolidating power, Lenin's forces [https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2020/08/communisms-first-defeat-john-radzilowski/ even attempted to outright invade Germany] to back up Communist groups operating there (Poland stopped them, alongside various international forces as well). And BTW, integrity of the Nuremberg Trials has already been questioned especially after the publishing of that book Nuremberg and Vietnam: An American Tragedy, which was [https://uakron.edu/dotAsset/ca5946e8-b2d6-43f9-a5ea-b6b98d73a461.pdf pretty easily taken down] regarding the comparisons (and what's even more ironic is that the guy who wrote the book played a huge role in those trials as well). [[User:Pokeria1|Pokeria1]] ([[User talk:Pokeria1|talk]]) 23:16, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
::::::::Kennedy's killers were all outside contractors. As to Che, [[Diem]], and Castro, the explanation the Deep State gave then was "the Kennedy's were victims of their own methods". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 23:21, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::Che was killed long after JFK was killed, so no, the Kennedys played absolutely NO role in his death (besides, there's sufficient evidence there that Castro sold him out). I'll give you Diem, though. And the only actual killer was Lee Harvey Oswald. And unless you've actually done KGB disinformation campaigns yourself, I suggest you not question Ion Mihai Pacepa, who DID have sufficient experience and knowledge on those bits (heck, his book ''Red Horizons'' was partly responsible for Nicolai Ceausceau's downfall). [[User:Pokeria1|Pokeria1]] ([[User talk:Pokeria1|talk]]) 23:25, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::And you got this from about 6 weeks ago: RFK jr, [https://dcdirtylaundry.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr-the-cia-killed-my-father-uncle-do-not-trust-the-medical-or-the-national-security-establishment/ "CIA Killed My Father & Uncle"]. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 23:26, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::::Heck, aside from Pacepa (and you still haven't actually refuted his claims, BTW), there's also Stasi spymaster Markus Wolf, who actually pointed to Castro arranging for JFK's death (and last I checked, Castro wasn't a CIA asset either, certainly not by that time): https://townhall.com/columnists/humbertofontova/2016/07/25/trump-spreads-kgbhatched-disinformation-meme-about-jfks-assassination-n2197606 And quite frankly, RFK jr. wasn't even involved in espionage at all, so why the heck would he claim anything about who was responsible. At least Pacepa was a high ranking Soviet intelligence officer, as was Markus Wolf. And just as an FYI, the book The First Directorate by Oleg Kalugin, who was the highest ranking KGB official to record his story (I'm not sure if he outranks Pacepa or not), [https://patriotpost.us/opinion/52560-the-kremlin-lbj-and-the-jfk-assassination-2017-11-22 voiced similar statements] to that of Pacepa regarding KGB involvement in the JFK assassination, at the very least the disinformation campaign if not the actual assassination itself, which means it's much more likely to be the Soviets who did it and NOT the Deep State (that's not to say the Deep State wasn't guilty of a whole slew of things). [[User:Pokeria1|Pokeria1]] ([[User talk:Pokeria1|talk]]) 23:29, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::::Besides, why would the Deep State kill JFK especially after his September 25, 1961 speech to the UN, in particular "For in the development of this organization [the United Nations] rests the only true alternative to war."? If I were the Deep State, that speech alone would have been more reason to ensure that JFK survived for a second term, NOT off him, knowing how much the Deep State LOVES the United Nations and wants it to dominate over America and everyone else. [[User:Pokeria1|Pokeria1]] ([[User talk:Pokeria1|talk]]) 23:45, 8 October 2020 (EDT)
== Question about Mitch McConnell ==
== Question about Mitch McConnell ==
::::::::::::::I would view the 'petrodollar agreement' as a way of carrying out joint foreign policy objectives and trade agreements, not so much as an end in itself. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 23:42, 25 February 2020 (EST)
::::::::::::::I would view the 'petrodollar agreement' as a way of carrying out joint foreign policy objectives and trade agreements, not so much as an end in itself. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 23:42, 25 February 2020 (EST)
:::::::::::::::It depends on whose perspective you're using. From the US' perspective, its core purpose is to preserve both the dollar's value and its international reserve currency status. But from the Saudis' perspective, its core purpose is to enhance the country's influence on the international stage. --[[User:Geopolitician|Geopolitician]] ([[User talk:Geopolitician|talk]]) 16:14, 26 February 2020 (EST)
:::::::::::::::It depends on whose perspective you're using. From the US' perspective, its core purpose is to preserve both the dollar's value and its international reserve currency status. But from the Saudis' perspective, its core purpose is to enhance the country's influence on the international stage. --[[User:Geopolitician|Geopolitician]] ([[User talk:Geopolitician|talk]]) 16:14, 26 February 2020 (EST)
::::::::::::::::This leads to a discussion of the SWIFT network. As to the Saudi's their position is about maintaining status as the Custodian of the Holy Places and providing a counterweight to Iranian extremism. It's no secret the Saudis are friends of Israel, so it's a fine line they walk as custodians of Mecca. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 16:53, 26 February 2020 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::I oppose our government's abuse of SWIFT. As for the Saudis, Israel, and Iran, I believe it's high time to switch sides in that conflict. The Saudis are the real enemy, and if Israel wants to get in bed with them then Israel is no longer an ally. --[[User:Geopolitician|Geopolitician]] ([[User talk:Geopolitician|talk]]) 21:53, 27 February 2020 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/03/05/the-redirection Read this], and we'll talk, [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 16:20, 9 March 2020 (EDT)
==Department of Children and Families==
==Department of Children and Families==
There is no federal Department of Children and Families. It sounds a bit conspiratorial. I suggest taking it down. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:42, 26 February 2020 (EST)
There is no federal Department of Children and Families. It sounds a bit conspiratorial. I suggest taking it down. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:42, 26 February 2020 (EST)
==Saudi Arabia==
Saudi Arabia is not a US Person. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:25, 9 March 2020 (EDT)
:So what? We can't place emphasis on the fact that there are foreign governments who work with the Deep State day and night to manipulate our government for their personal needs? I suppose you also believe we shouldn't list Christopher Steele on the template either. --[[User:Geopolitician|Geopolitician]] ([[User talk:Geopolitician|talk]]) 15:47, 9 March 2020 (EDT)
::Semi-valid point; criticism of Saudi Arabia however may be considered anti-Semitic. The [https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/28/how-the-gulf-states-got-in-bed-with-israel-and-forgot-about-the-palestinian-cause-netanyahu-oman-chad-uae-saudi-arabia-mohammed-bin-salman-qatar-bahrain/ Saudis are in bed with Jews], ya know. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 16:06, 9 March 2020 (EDT)
==Bolton==
Recent press reports are just drumming up advanced sales. When the book does come out, nobody will care anyway.
As you see with [[Spygate]] transcripts, alleged "classified information" has a limited shelf life anyways. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 16:31, 17 June 2020 (EDT)
==Soule's ''A Planned Society''==
I added George Soule's book as it is distinctly promotional of bureaucratic despotism. It's title accurately captures the intent of the book and the book's age helps cement the fact that we aren't dealing with anything new here. [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 00:58, 29 April 2021 (EDT)
:Actually it looks like a very interesting book. [https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.168288/page/n11/mode/2up] And at the time it came out, 1930, it looks like it would appeal to followers of Stalin, FDR, and Hitler for implementation in their respective cultures, with varying results. This explains much. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]</sup> 03:55, 29 April 2021 (EDT)