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Debate: Does the Magisterium have authority over the Bible, or does the Bible have authority over the Magisterium? (view source)
Revision as of 07:10, August 3, 2020
, 07:10, August 3, 2020→Answer from IndependentSkeptic ( 01:01, 3 August 2020 (EDT) )
:The Bible also commands: "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that ''is'' unprofitable for you."<ref>See [https://biblia.com/bible/esv/matthew/16/18-19 Matthew 16:18-19]; [https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1_timothy/3/15 1 Timothy 3:15]; [https://biblia.com/bible/esv/romans/13/1-2 Romans 13:1-2]; [https://biblia.com/bible/esv/hebrews/13/17 Hebrews 13:17]</ref>
:The Bible also commands: "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that ''is'' unprofitable for you."<ref>See [https://biblia.com/bible/esv/matthew/16/18-19 Matthew 16:18-19]; [https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1_timothy/3/15 1 Timothy 3:15]; [https://biblia.com/bible/esv/romans/13/1-2 Romans 13:1-2]; [https://biblia.com/bible/esv/hebrews/13/17 Hebrews 13:17]</ref>
'''So'''—we propose a counter-question: Is the Bible the Word of God? Will you obey the Word of God?<br>We'll leave it at that for you to answer. We're just asking the simple question. We don't intend to stay and debate it since this is our final post on leaving Conservapedia. For us the answer seems obvious, so we won't be checking back for your response. We hope you have an answer, for the benefit of people who read this page. Peace be with you. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 01:01, 3 August 2020 (EDT)
'''So'''—we propose a counter-question: Is the Bible the Word of God? Will you obey the Word of God?<br>We'll leave it at that for you to answer. We're just asking the simple question. We don't intend to stay and debate it since this is our final post on leaving Conservapedia. For us the answer seems obvious, so we won't be checking back for your response. We hope you have an answer, for the benefit of people who read this page. Peace be with you. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 01:01, 3 August 2020 (EDT)
:Yes, we can see how 1 Peter 2:13-17 can be understood to refer to a [[theocratic]] form of government, combining both civil and spiritual authority (i.e., no [[separation of church and state]]), as Israel once was under Saul, David, Solomon, and their successors. But we also have this bitter pill to swallow - the testimony of [[Nebuchadnezzar]] recorded in the [[Book of Daniel]]:
:*''This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.''
:Given this scripture, [[papal primacy]] is nothing to boast of. When Jesus said ''Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church'', there actually was a separation of civil authority from religious authority, between the Roman occupying force and the Pharisees. At Jesus' ascension, let's look at Acts 1:2-6:
{{quotebox|''after that he through the Holy Ghost had '''given commandments unto the apostles''' whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?''<ref>Daniel 4:17</ref>}}
:There is much here, but lets glean a few specifics: the Apostles who witnessed his Resurrection, etc., were still of a "carnal mind", looking for restoration of the Kingdom as is was under David, forgetting that Jesus said ''my kingdom is not of this world''. They had not received the Holy Spirit yet.
:So yes, I do believe the Bible in its entirety - that the "basest of men" can refer to the [[Apostolic succession]]. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 03:10, 3 August 2020 (EDT)
==Scripture has authority over the Roman church==
==Scripture has authority over the Roman church==