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| | *'''Acts 19:2''' - ''“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”'' | | *'''Acts 19:2''' - ''“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”'' |
| | However Roman Catholic catechism teaches that grace and salvation is earned, and that the Holy spirit is given through water baptism. | | However Roman Catholic catechism teaches that grace and salvation is earned, and that the Holy spirit is given through water baptism. |
| − | *'''CCC 2010''' - “Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, '''we can then merit for ourselves''' and for others '''the graces needed''' for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and '''for the attainment of eternal life.'''<ref>http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm#2010</ref>
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| − | To restate, '''"we can then merit for ourselves'''...'''the graces needed'''...'''for the attainment of eternal life."''' This is a denial of salvation by grace (''grace is not grace'') and a doctrine, or another gospel of salvation by works.<ref>
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| − | *'''Galatians 1:8''' - ''if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.''
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| − | *'''2 Corinthians 11:3-4''' - ''But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh '''preacheth another Jesus''', whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, '''or another gospel''', which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him'' (''ye might well bear with him'' is explained in verse 19, ''For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.'')<br>The Roman church preaches that the foundation stone laid in Zion is Peter, not Jesus and another gospel of salvation by works. </ref>
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| | :::[[Falsehood|False]]. CCC 2010: "''no one can merit the initial grace'' of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion." (CCC 1996-2011)<br>Your "water baptism" comment is a [[misrepresentation]], by carefully omitting an important teaching of the Bible. In '''Acts 19:1-6''' Paul explained why John's water baptism was insufficient (vv.4-5). John's baptism, though it required repentance, yet looked '''''forward''''' to the coming of the One for whom John was a forerunner (Jesus). '''Jesus had not yet died''' when John baptized people. His was a baptism of '''''preparation''''' looking forward to Jesus' death. "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard ''this'', they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." This shows that John's water baptism unto repentance cannot be the water baptism which Jesus commanded people to receive under the gospel (Matthew 28:19). Christians are baptized into his death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12) "by the washing of water by the word" (Ephesians 5:26). John's disciples were not. So then they were baptized by Paul.<ref>See https://www.gospelway.com/topics/salvation/baptism-john.php The Baptism of John the Baptist, David E. Pratte. <br> See also ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'' CCC 1213-1228.</ref> --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 06:36, 30 August 2020 (EDT) | | :::[[Falsehood|False]]. CCC 2010: "''no one can merit the initial grace'' of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion." (CCC 1996-2011)<br>Your "water baptism" comment is a [[misrepresentation]], by carefully omitting an important teaching of the Bible. In '''Acts 19:1-6''' Paul explained why John's water baptism was insufficient (vv.4-5). John's baptism, though it required repentance, yet looked '''''forward''''' to the coming of the One for whom John was a forerunner (Jesus). '''Jesus had not yet died''' when John baptized people. His was a baptism of '''''preparation''''' looking forward to Jesus' death. "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard ''this'', they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." This shows that John's water baptism unto repentance cannot be the water baptism which Jesus commanded people to receive under the gospel (Matthew 28:19). Christians are baptized into his death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12) "by the washing of water by the word" (Ephesians 5:26). John's disciples were not. So then they were baptized by Paul.<ref>See https://www.gospelway.com/topics/salvation/baptism-john.php The Baptism of John the Baptist, David E. Pratte. <br> See also ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'' CCC 1213-1228.</ref> --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 06:36, 30 August 2020 (EDT) |
| − | ::::We've been over this a dozen times. The gospel was preached to Israel in the wilderness. King David had the Holy Spirit. [[Job]] was "perfect and upright." Zacharias and Elisabeth were both "righteous before God", as was [[Abel]]. Simeon (Luke 2:25) was "just and devout". In all these cases '''Jesus had not yet died''' either. There is only one way a sinner can be declared righteous before God.<ref>Question: | + | ::::We've been over this a dozen times. The gospel was preached to Israel in the wilderness. King David had the Holy Spirit. Job was "perfect and upright." Zacharias and Elisabeth were both "righteous before God", as was Abel. '''Jesus had not yet died''' either. You apparently do not know what the gospel is. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 08:43, 30 August 2020 (EDT) |
| − | *'''Romans 4:1''' - ''What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?''<br>
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| − | Answer:<br>
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| − | *'''Romans 4:21''' - ''being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform,'' i.e., the [[resurrection]].<br>All these Old Testament figures, Abraham, Job, David, Zacharias and Elizabeth, Simeon, Anna, Abel and others had faith in God and the resurrection, (or new life in Christ), knowing that ''whatsoever He had promised he was able to deliver''. Faith is ''the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen''. They didn't have to wait for Jesus to be born, crucified, and resurrected to be 'born again' and receive the Holy Spirit. They were all declared righteous by simply believing what God promised, or ''faith''. Faith is obedience.</ref> The Law cannot make righteous.<ref>https://biblehub.com/library/augustine/anti-pelagian_writings/chapter_16_x_how_the_law.htm</ref> You apparently do not understand what the gospel is. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 08:43, 30 August 2020 (EDT)
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| | ::::Independent Skeptic says, '''"This shows that John's water baptism unto repentance cannot be the water baptism which Jesus commanded people to receive"''' Bingo! Now reconcile what you just posted with Roman Catholic doctrine and all the drivel in the [[Infant baptism]] page. Hint: Jesus didn't command "water baptism". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:07, 30 August 2020 (EDT) | | ::::Independent Skeptic says, '''"This shows that John's water baptism unto repentance cannot be the water baptism which Jesus commanded people to receive"''' Bingo! Now reconcile what you just posted with Roman Catholic doctrine and all the drivel in the [[Infant baptism]] page. Hint: Jesus didn't command "water baptism". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:07, 30 August 2020 (EDT) |
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| | ::::<s>You are trolling again.</s> Below you state salvation is earned or merited, which is exactly what catechism teaches. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:42, 29 August 2020 (EDT) | | ::::<s>You are trolling again.</s> Below you state salvation is earned or merited, which is exactly what catechism teaches. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 09:42, 29 August 2020 (EDT) |
| − | The Roman Catholic catechism teaches that the Holy Spirit is given through water baptism.
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| | *'''CCC 1999''' - “infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism.” | | *'''CCC 1999''' - “infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism.” |
| | + | *'''CCC 2010''' - “Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, '''we can then merit for ourselves''' and for others '''the graces needed''' for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and '''for the attainment of eternal life.'''<ref>http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm#2010</ref> |
| | *'''Isaiah 28:14''' - '' '''we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves''' | | *'''Isaiah 28:14''' - '' '''we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves''' |
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