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Talk:Income Redistribution (view source)
Revision as of 00:17, August 20, 2007
, 00:17, August 20, 2007no edit summary
:::Why is it nonsense? If the rich give their money to the poor through charity, isn't that voluntary income redistribution? Doesn't the existence of voluntary income redistrubution make involuntary redistrubution look that much more insidious? [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 16:56, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
:::Why is it nonsense? If the rich give their money to the poor through charity, isn't that voluntary income redistribution? Doesn't the existence of voluntary income redistrubution make involuntary redistrubution look that much more insidious? [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 16:56, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
::::Charity is an act or policy of government? C'mon now. [[User:RobS|Rob Smith]] 18:16, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
::::Charity is an act or policy of government? C'mon now. [[User:RobS|Rob Smith]] 18:16, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
:::::What I meant was that individuals can redistribute income without government intervention. For instance, the early church as recorded in Acts redistributed wealth voluntarily. Jesus and his early followers were big fans of voluntary income distribution. But if you want to limit the scope of the article to government policy, that's fine. [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 20:17, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
:*''[[Liberal]]s generally support....an [[egalitarian]] view of [[economic justice]]''
:*''[[Liberal]]s generally support....an [[egalitarian]] view of [[economic justice]]''
::originally it even flatly stated "marxist or egalitartian." In the revised form here, it ''still'' was just disguised marxist propaganda.
::originally it even flatly stated "marxist or egalitartian." In the revised form here, it ''still'' was just disguised marxist propaganda.
:::My friend, I'm no Marxist, and i'm not in favor of an equal economic outcome for all people, but if we don't accurately portray the bases for belief, how can we debunk them? [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 16:56, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
:::My friend, I'm no Marxist, and i'm not in favor of an equal economic outcome for all people, but if we don't accurately portray the bases for belief, how can we debunk them? [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 16:56, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
::::So "marxist" is "egalitarian", right? [[User:RobS|Rob Smith]] 18:16, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
::::So "marxist" is "egalitarian", right? [[User:RobS|Rob Smith]] 18:16, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
:::::In theory, yes. In practice, no. [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 20:17, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
:As to the Ayn Rand material, all of it in CP needs to be reviewed. None of it appears accurate. Rand is being presented as saying a person born with a disability can starve to death, or a 75 year old unable to work likewise can perish. Until some balance is at least strived for, I intend to remove it all. [[User:RobS|Rob Smith]] 15:07, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
:As to the Ayn Rand material, all of it in CP needs to be reviewed. None of it appears accurate. Rand is being presented as saying a person born with a disability can starve to death, or a 75 year old unable to work likewise can perish. Until some balance is at least strived for, I intend to remove it all. [[User:RobS|Rob Smith]] 15:07, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
::Have you read any of Ayn Rand's work? [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 16:56, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
::Have you read any of Ayn Rand's work? [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 16:56, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
:::No. But I've listened to Greenspan speak since I was knee high to a grasshopper, and he was one of her students. And it's precisley because of her athiesm, I suppose, why I have never really read much of Ayn Rand. However, I find it very difficult to believe she was cold-hearted and wanted the elderly and disabbled to starve to death in a pure capitalist system.
:::No. But I've listened to Greenspan speak since I was knee high to a grasshopper, and he was one of her students. And it's precisley because of her athiesm, I suppose, why I have never really read much of Ayn Rand. However, I find it very difficult to believe she was cold-hearted and wanted the elderly and disabbled to starve to death in a pure capitalist system.
::::I have read a great deal of her stuff. It's certainly a distortion to say that she wanted the elderly to starve. She thought they should either a) work hard enough in life to save enough for retirement, or b) find some way to merit the necessities of survival in frailty. She held a very stark outlook -- probably a reaction to the Soviet Communism she grew up in. Here is a quote from Ayn Rand explaining her views on charity, that might serve as a starting point:
:::::"My views on charity are very simple. I do not consider it a major virtue and, above all, I do not consider it a moral duty. There is nothing wrong in helping other people, if and when they are worthy of the help and you can afford to help them. I regard charity as a marginal issue. What I am fighting is the idea that charity is a moral duty and a primary virtue." [From "Playboy's 1964 interview with Ayn Rand"], cited at the Ayn Rand institute.[http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=faq_index#obj_q7][[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 20:17, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
:::I have been around the block dealing with marxist lies for decades. I know how Adam Smith is distorted and lied about by on college campuses. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Here's a typical example I've encountered many times, over many decades, and most recently in Wikipedia (Honestly, before even reading the page, ''I knew this lie & distortion would be there''):
:::I have been around the block dealing with marxist lies for decades. I know how Adam Smith is distorted and lied about by on college campuses. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Here's a typical example I've encountered many times, over many decades, and most recently in Wikipedia (Honestly, before even reading the page, ''I knew this lie & distortion would be there''):
:::'''A quote from Adam Smith'''
:::'''A quote from Adam Smith'''
:::So no, I wouldn't know where to begin citing Ayn Rand's comments toward the elderly & disabled, however experience teachers me, someone who considers marxism 'egalitarian' is the last source I'd consider as having any credibitly whatsoever as to what Ayn Rand said or thought. [[User:RobS|Rob Smith]] 18:16, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
:::So no, I wouldn't know where to begin citing Ayn Rand's comments toward the elderly & disabled, however experience teachers me, someone who considers marxism 'egalitarian' is the last source I'd consider as having any credibitly whatsoever as to what Ayn Rand said or thought. [[User:RobS|Rob Smith]] 18:16, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
::::You'll get no argument from me that most brilliant people are routinely distorted beyond recognition to serve the purposes of lesser minds. I applaud your efforts. [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 20:17, 19 August 2007 (EDT)