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→Social effects of Creationist ideas
::::Keep in mind, [[Wikipedia]] has a [[liberal bias]]. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 14:14, 2 February 2008 (EST)
::::Keep in mind, [[Wikipedia]] has a [[liberal bias]]. [[User:Feebasfactor|Feebasfactor]] 14:14, 2 February 2008 (EST)
:::::Order, of course it is only opinion, as this is not something that is empirically testable, but it is, as you said, ''educated'' (or perhaps we could say ''expert'') opinion, and opinion ''based on evidence''. And what it is talking about is the influence of ''Christianity'', not the ''church''. Perhaps some/the religious ''institutions'' did limit it in cases, but that is different to saying that ''Christianity'' limited it. Historically, the most Christian nation on Earth has been America, the same country that has produced more scientists than the ''rest of the world put together'', I believe. The point being that there is plenty of evidence (albeit not absolute proof, which is impossible anyway) for the claim, and it is really only the unwillingness of most atheists and agnostics to acknowledge this that leads to it being questioned. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:56, 2 February 2008 (EST)
:::::Order, of course it is only opinion, as this is not something that is empirically testable, but it is, as you said, ''educated'' (or perhaps we could say ''expert'') opinion, and opinion ''based on evidence''. And what it is talking about is the influence of ''Christianity'', not the ''church''. Perhaps some/the religious ''institutions'' did limit it in cases, but that is different to saying that ''Christianity'' limited it. Historically, the most Christian nation on Earth has been America, the same country that has produced more scientists than the ''rest of the world put together'', I believe. The point being that there is plenty of evidence (albeit not absolute proof, which is impossible anyway) for the claim, and it is really only the unwillingness of most atheists and agnostics to acknowledge this that leads to it being questioned. [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:56, 2 February 2008 (EST)
::::::Philip, if we look at the evidence we know that Christians were always on both sides of the debates. Noting the fact that in pre-modern Europe most scientist were Christian is pointless because being a Christian was equivalent to being a European. But when we look at the issues we see that you had roughly speaking two types of Christians scientists in those days, namely those who looked for evidence out side of the bible, and those that looked for evidence inside. And, lets face it those who were literalist always lost pretty much every time. Galileo was a Christian, but a Christian who offered when his theory, accompanied it with an alternative less literal interpretation of the bible. Copernicus was even a cleric, but even he was afraid about how his finding would be received by the literalists. Nicolas Oresme, natural philosopher and bishop said, "There is no reason to take recourse to the heavens, the last refuge of the weak, or demons, or to our glorious God as if He would produce these effects directly". He did already disagree in 1365 with todays creationist stance, even though he was a Catholic bishop. So I find it a bit audacious that you claim all of these for yourself, even though you fundamentally disagree with their philosophy.
:::::::It is debatable if the contemporary US is not the most Christian nation at this point in time, but is certainly not the most Christian if you compare it with other countries in history, and it never was. You are again boasting yourself with the achievements of others. The US is most active in science in the last 50 years, first mostly due to an influx of European scientists, and later from other continents. Go into an American lab, and you will meet people from all over the world, but have often a hard time finding an American. And even among the Americans, go to the National Academy of Science, and check its members, and you will find that hardly anyone would subscribe to your view of Christianity. So, please, don't claim people for your side that with whom you hardly agree. [[User:Order|Order]] 01:15, 3 February 2008 (EST)