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Debate:Did Jesus ever claim to be God? (view source)
Revision as of 01:13, February 20, 2008
, 01:13, February 20, 2008→According to Jesus himself
:Jesus also said at Matthew 19:5, regarding Adam and Eve, that they were "one flesh" (referring to their marital union). Nobody would ever construe his words to mean that Jesus ''literally'' meant that the first couple walked around like conjoined twins. Again, context is critical. John 10:36 asks the Jews if they feel he has blasphemed because I said, I am Son of God? At John 17:21, 22 Christ prayed, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one." (''KJV'') The Greek word being translated as "one" (''hen''), at both John 10:30 and John 17:21, 22, is neuter, literally "one (thing)," and is used to indicate oneness in cooperation.
:Jesus also said at Matthew 19:5, regarding Adam and Eve, that they were "one flesh" (referring to their marital union). Nobody would ever construe his words to mean that Jesus ''literally'' meant that the first couple walked around like conjoined twins. Again, context is critical. John 10:36 asks the Jews if they feel he has blasphemed because I said, I am Son of God? At John 17:21, 22 Christ prayed, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one." (''KJV'') The Greek word being translated as "one" (''hen''), at both John 10:30 and John 17:21, 22, is neuter, literally "one (thing)," and is used to indicate oneness in cooperation.
:French theologian John Calvin (July 10, 1509 – May 27, 1564), said in the book ''Commentary on the Gospel According to John'': “The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is . . . of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father.” [[User:BibleBrown|BibleBrown]] 17:26, 16 December 2007 (EST)
:French theologian John Calvin (July 10, 1509 – May 27, 1564), said in the book ''Commentary on the Gospel According to John'': “The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is . . . of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father.” [[User:BibleBrown|BibleBrown]] 17:26, 16 December 2007 (EST)
Did jesus claim to be be God?... No he did not, because there is not a single vocal statment in the bible where Jesus says that he is God, or where he says worship me...Jesus is not God, however he is a mighty messenger from God.
Did jesus claim to be be God?... No he did not, because there is not a single vocal statment in the bible where Jesus says that he is God, or where he says worship me...Jesus is not God, however he is a mighty messenger from God.
::Remember that the problem doesn't lie with the Bible it's in the lies about the Bible. Accept that it is the word of God and pray for guidance in understanding what it ''really'' teaches. [[User:BibleBrown|BibleBrown]] 22:20, 29 January 2008 (EST)
::Remember that the problem doesn't lie with the Bible it's in the lies about the Bible. Accept that it is the word of God and pray for guidance in understanding what it ''really'' teaches. [[User:BibleBrown|BibleBrown]] 22:20, 29 January 2008 (EST)
I think it is unfair to imply the trinity is not based on the Bible. Jesus said in Matthew that we are to baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit. And the doctrine is mentioned in other parts of the Bible. The divinity of Jesus is shown throughout the gospels(miracles, etc.), letter to hebrews, revelation. Even if one is skeptical of the truine doctrine, I think there is a logic to it, as scripture shows Jesus to be both man (prophet) and divine (Son of God). Regards, Adam
I think it is unfair to imply the trinity is not based on the Bible. Jesus said in Matthew that we are to baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit. And the doctrine is mentioned in other parts of the Bible. The divinity of Jesus is shown throughout the gospels(miracles, etc.), letter to hebrews, revelation. Even if one is skeptical of the truine doctrine, I think there is a logic to it, as scripture shows Jesus to be both man (prophet) and divine (Son of God). Regards, Adam
<blockquote>
Did Jesus claim to be be God?... No he did not, because there is not a single vocal statement in the bible where Jesus says that he is God, or where he says worship me...Jesus is not God, however he is a mighty messenger from God.
</blockquote>
The manner of hermeneutic behind this kind of statement makes only explicit statements within a "red latter" Bible authoritative, as if it was not the same Holy Spirit who inspired the gospels that inspired the narrative also, and the rest of the N.T. by which we interpret the gospels. And as if Jesus often chose not to give direct statements but said (as does the Holy Spirit elsewhere) and did things that left no other conclusion than that He was claiming essential equality with God. It is indeed tragic that the blind Pharisees (etc.) got the clue - and thus sought to destroy Him - but the modern Arian does not. Jesus claim to be the Son of God was itself a claim of Deity, as is illustrated in John 5:18, in which "the Jews sought the more to kill him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God." This phrase "alla kai patera idion elege ton theon" conveyed a unique quality of sonship, as Robertsons word pictures explains: “His own” (idion) in a sense not true of others. That is precisely what Jesus meant by “My Father.” See Rom_8:32 for ho idios huios, “his own Son”
This is why the Jews sought to apprehend Jesus after He explained Himself John 10, where, because of what He said and did, they charged Jesus with "blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (v. 33). Jesus points out to them that if the Scriptures - which He affirms are the immutable authority - calls mere men "gods" (Ps. 82:6), then how more more fitting it is that He whom the Father sanctified and sent calls Himself the Son of God, as He is God by nature, as His works testify the Father was in Him, and He in Him (vs. 34-38). They did not like that, because like many Arians, they could not perceive God even if He was standing in front of them. "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand" (v. 38). "Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour." (Isa 45:15).
Similarly, this is the answer to the question in John 12:34b, "who is this Son of man? Jesus responds by telling them the light will soon be gone, so "walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them" (vs. 35, 36).
The Holy Spirit goes on to apply the prophecy given to Isaiah (6:9, 10) to the blindness of the current Jews, and that "These things said Esaias, when he saw His glory, and spake of Him" (v. 41), the subject being Christ. And who did Isaiah see when he was given that prophecy? None other than the LORD Himself (6:1). It was thus that "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me" (vs. 44-45).
Of course we also have the explicit statement that "the Word was God" (John 1:1), which cannot be rendered "a god" unless you want to render other texts in that chapter that way (like v. 12: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God"). And if Jesus is only a might God, then that would make Him compete with the mighty God of the O.T. (Psalm 50:1), and would make Jesus a false God, as in regards to Deity according to nature the LORD declares, "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any" (Isa 44:8). "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me" (Isa 46:9). "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." (Isa 45:22). Unless or course, Jesus is what the Holy Spirit declares Him to be in many ways, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." (Rev 1:8).
Heb. 1 also attributes to Christ scriptures that are addressed to the person called God, as do other texts (Joel 2:32 x Roman 10:13; Isaiah 40:3 x Mark 3:3; etc.), and overall we see the Deity of Christ incontrovertibly manifested as unique titles, attributes and glory that only belong to the Being called God are ascribed to Christ. See more on this here: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/DEITYofCHRIST.html
Not that Jesus is the Father, or equal in position, but what i see as the most primary essential quality of God is that of possessing His unique uncreated nature, which no one else has, but which the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit) possess, as the Scripture saith, "from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God," "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (Psalm 90:2; Micah 5:2).
May all, like Thomas, confess to Jesus, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), to the glory of god the Father. Amen --[[User:Daniel1212|Daniel1212]] 20:13, 19 February 2008 (EST)