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Talk:Essay:A Challenge to Creationists (view source)
Revision as of 18:49, June 17, 2008
, 18:49, June 17, 2008no edit summary
I understand this isn't quite what you said, but it eventually led to it, so while I do not necessarily direct this to you, Ymmtrojam, I certainly direct it at a few of the members of this site. Thanks, and Lightspeed.--[[User:JackSmith|JackSmith]] 14:11, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
I understand this isn't quite what you said, but it eventually led to it, so while I do not necessarily direct this to you, Ymmtrojam, I certainly direct it at a few of the members of this site. Thanks, and Lightspeed.--[[User:JackSmith|JackSmith]] 14:11, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
:Thank you for your honesty. Here's some more food for thought. (By the way I'm in no way against you. I love dialoguing about this kind of thing. After all these questions trouble me at times as well, because this is something that is life or death to me. I don't take these issues lightly. Just so you know I actually care, and it's not just talk...)
:# I know some Christians haven't really been good examples of what a ''Christian'' is supposed to be, but I would encourage you not to judge Jesus on his hypocritical followers (I'm not directing this to anyone here in particular, just in general). After all Christians can sin, have bad attitudes, etc! Oh the horror! :-)
:# ''"No, that is NOT necessarily so. You just said at the beginning 'if there is a god'. This is NOT proven, so your conclusion is in no position to be stated as fact."'' You're absolutely right that I said "if," and I intended to. I am trying to see if you are open minded. There is no point in debating with someone if he is not open minded. I am also trying to be completely honest in my dealings with you.
:# ''"It's too contradictory that an all powerful and loving God would be such a pompous and arrogant jerk, telling people "you're irredeemably ugly. It's not my opinion, it's fact."'' (1) How contradictory is "too contradictory" :-)? It seems by saying "too", you mean that you just don't like it, but it doesn't invalidate it. (2) The Bible actually comes out and tells us that even the good things are ''not beautiful'' in God's eyes. ''"For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And <u>all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment</u>; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"'' (Isaiah 64:6). '''Actually, it is a loving act that God tells us that we are not as good as we think we are. Imagine a doctor telling a cancer patient who is about to die, that he really isn't doing that bad!'''
:# ''"be good or go to hell."'' I agree, that would be a "scare tactic," if that were the message of Christianity. In fact that is the very opposite of the Christian message. In fact, we say that one cannot be good to go to Heaven, because we are all sinners who are incapable of being ''good enough''. If getting to Heaven depended on good deeds, how would you ever know if you had done enough? You would never know if you needed to go to church one more time, or walk one more old lady across the road! But in fact we are saved by the unmerited favor (grace) of God. That means that when we trust in Jesus Christ, God saves us on the merits of what Christ did in dieing in our place... not on our merits. "For by grace we are saved through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).
:# ''"I may not be perfect."'' Now this last paragraph I know you weren't directing at me. But that phrase, "may not be perfect," that is really the whole point of Christianity. It doesn't matter whether we do those horrible deeds of raping, killing, etc, God cares about our hearts as well. There's that commandment about not committing adultery... well guess what, I've never done that. But Jesus said that even if we ''look with lust'' after a woman, we have committed adultery with her in our heart. See, God cares about perfection even in our minds and hearts (Because he is perfect and has to judge rebellion against him), and by your confession, you are not perfect (at least "may" not be). '''See, this makes the entire world, yes, even every single Christian guilty before God. No one escapes. That is why we all deserve hell, and that is why every one of us needs God to intervene on our behalf (and that is where Jesus, being God in the flesh, comes on the scene).'''
:--[[User:Ymmotrojam|Ymmotrojam]] 14:49, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
*clap* *clap* *clap* -Drek
*clap* *clap* *clap* -Drek