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→A Few Issues
:I agree on the ex-Duke thing and will agree on the use of Orontes and the numbers at Ascalon. On the battle of Orontes itself, while the Crusaders did engage and defeat a portion of the army (the part under the direct command of Kerbogha), the vast majority of Muslim potentates who had been basically forced against their will into riding with Kerbogha abandoned him, not wishing to see him triumph. Source for this is Steven Runicman's ''A History of the Crusades Volume I: The First Crusade'', pp. 247-250, especially p. 248. For the surprise attack on the camp at Ascalon as opposed to a pitched battle, see the same book, pp. 296-7. I would aslo question the estimation of Kerbogha's force to be 75,000, as little to no evidence exists, and the most generous estimates of size I can find seem to be around 30,000-35,000, considering by comparison that the forces of the entired Byzantine Empire, the most heavily populated state in the world, had a total force of 70,000 men. That said, if you have a source I do not, I will defer on this issue. [[User:Forwearemany|Forwearemany]] 12:44, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
:I agree on the ex-Duke thing and will agree on the use of Orontes and the numbers at Ascalon. On the battle of Orontes itself, while the Crusaders did engage and defeat a portion of the army (the part under the direct command of Kerbogha), the vast majority of Muslim potentates who had been basically forced against their will into riding with Kerbogha abandoned him, not wishing to see him triumph. Source for this is Steven Runicman's ''A History of the Crusades Volume I: The First Crusade'', pp. 247-250, especially p. 248. For the surprise attack on the camp at Ascalon as opposed to a pitched battle, see the same book, pp. 296-7. I would aslo question the estimation of Kerbogha's force to be 75,000, as little to no evidence exists, and the most generous estimates of size I can find seem to be around 30,000-35,000, considering by comparison that the forces of the entired Byzantine Empire, the most heavily populated state in the world, had a total force of 70,000 men. That said, if you have a source I do not, I will defer on this issue. [[User:Forwearemany|Forwearemany]] 12:44, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
::The Byzantines traditionally had 150,000 men under arms, smaller than the Roman Empire before them, but they weren't really a military empire and preferred to spend their money in other ways. They counted on quality of troops above quantity. It is possible their numbers were down significantly after Manzikert, as they no longer had the rich lands of Anatolia from which to raise armies - an area where at one time they could raise up to 120,000 men when pressed to do so. The 75,000 men number in the battle comes from the Encylopedia of Military History. Remember that the Byzantine army that was coming to help turned away believing the situation was hopeless, an unlikely move if there were only 30,000 men coming to enforce the siege. If you have extra information on the Battle of Ascalon, then you are welcome to add it. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 13:39, 19 August 2008 (EDT)