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copying over from Ed's talk page.
Additionally, this whole article is a little too dense for a student encyclopedia. I'd change it myself, but I don't really know what it's saying after the first line or two! [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:03, 17 October 2008 (EDT)
Additionally, this whole article is a little too dense for a student encyclopedia. I'd change it myself, but I don't really know what it's saying after the first line or two! [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 23:03, 17 October 2008 (EDT)
==Addition & sum==
Now [[Addition]] is defined as the sum, and [[Sum]] as an addition. You can add (pun intended) [[Addend]]s to the mix, but it's still the same snake biting its own tail. --[[User:Jonsen|Jonsen]] 13:13, 4 November 2008 (EST)
:You're right: neither is well-defined. How about [[subtraction]]? For now, I'll just redirect, but we'd better provide a simply definition. How do you like googling? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 13:29, 4 November 2008 (EST)
Long time no see, Ed. Would you mind if I restored the [[addition]] article with some [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(centrism) Third Way] between the extremes of University level definition and the high-school one? Perhaps with a simple introduction that goes into more detail later on? It'll break the [[ouroboros]] that Jonsen notes above. --[[User:Wikinterpreter|Wikinterpreter]]
:No objection at all. Just try to make the article accessible to our target audience, which begins at age 12. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 14:37, 4 November 2008 (EST)
:* Will do. But I'll be sure to add in something for the ''upper reaches'' of our target audience, too ... --[[User:Wikinterpreter|Wikinterpreter]]
::Try labeling it with something like [[Formal definitions of basic math concepts]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 15:33, 4 November 2008 (EST)
:::Not to worry, the putative article seems fairly good for all. While you're online, Ed, could I ask a quick favour? I've made a handy diagram to go with the article's instructions for columnar addition, but can't upload it. Could you upload it for me? Pwetty pwease? I've stored it [http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/9121/picture8ol0.png here], so if you could put it on, that would be great. I could also do ones for long division, and long division of polynomials, should it be of help. --[[User:Wikinterpreter|Wikinterpreter]]
::::Hooray for Ed Poor! Thanks mate. --[[User:Wikinterpreter|Wikinterpreter]]
:Any time. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 17:18, 4 November 2008 (EST)
Ed. What are you doing with the addition articles ([[addition]], [[sum]], [[addend]], etc)? They were written at a high school level. Addend was not circular -- it was written in terms of addition -- yet you deleted it. You replaced addition with a redirect to sum, which (as has been pointed out to you) was written in terms of addition! The definition on the addition page was perfectly at the high school level -- they do teach that it is a symmetric operation (commutative) and it's associative, has identity, etc. These are all BASIC properties that are taught in 4th grade or earlier! Your present comment on the talk page for [[sum]] makes it seem like we're gearing the mathematics articles to kindergartners. I would be devastated if you expect beginning high schoolers (12 year olds, by your own standard) to not have a thorough knowledge of addition. The definition you are proposing is far beneath their understanding and the content was not "abstruse [[number theory]]". --[[User:Foxtrot|Foxtrot]] 17:47, 4 November 2008 (EST)
I must admit, when I learnt long addition (in a Church school, no less), I was 6 ... I took the lead from Ed's comment. Nonetheless, I can sort of see how you could build it up: start with counting, then you've got long addition, then it isn't much of leap forwards to long division, then, from that, it's a fairly short distance to long division of polynomials, which are high-level maths. --[[User:Wikinterpreter|Wikinterpreter]]
:Wikinterpreter, your current version is a significant improvement over the redirect. However, the article (particularly the "methods of addition" section) is still grounded in just considering addition of whole numbers, and this is the main issue I have with Ed's comment on the [[Talk:Sum]] page -- counting is only an appropriate explanation for whole numbers (or integers, if you want to consider negatives). It becomes very cumbersome for talking about adding fractions (rational numbers) and completely ineffective for talking about real numbers. All these kinds of numbers are ones that students will have seen plenty of by the time they're twelve and there's no reason to gear the definition at a preschool level and then build it up, when beginning high schoolers are at a much higher level of mathematical maturity by then. -[[User:Foxtrot|Foxtrot]] 18:15, 4 November 2008 (EST)
Two suggestions:
#Move this discussion to [[talk:addition]]
#Consider that our readers began learning about addition by adding integers. Very few people are good at adding fractions; do you know off the top of your head that 1/3 + 1/4 = 7/12? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 19:00, 4 November 2008 (EST)