Talk:Addition

I removed the following:

Examples:

3 + 2 = 5 the order of the operands doesnt matter 3 + 2 = 2 + 3 = 5

for larger numbers they are added in order of smallest unit to largest unit

17 + 25 = 42 add the units 5 + 7 = 12 add the tens 10 + 20 = 30 then add them 12 + 30 = 42

Because the text was unclear (even though I could figure out what it meant) and the examples weren't really necessary. The text could probably be reformulated and added back as it's own section, though I'm not sure it's necessary.

Additionally, this whole article is a little too dense for a student encyclopedia. I'd change it myself, but I don't really know what it's saying after the first line or two! HelpJazz 23:03, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Addition & sum

Now Addition is defined as the sum, and Sum as an addition. You can add (pun intended) Addends to the mix, but it's still the same snake biting its own tail. --Jonsen 13:13, 4 November 2008 (EST)

You're right: neither is well-defined. How about subtraction? For now, I'll just redirect, but we'd better provide a simply definition. How do you like googling? --Ed Poor ^Talk 13:29, 4 November 2008 (EST)

Long time no see, Ed. Would you mind if I restored the addition article with some Third Way between the extremes of University level definition and the high-school one? Perhaps with a simple introduction that goes into more detail later on? It'll break the ouroboros that Jonsen notes above. --Wikinterpreter

No objection at all. Just try to make the article accessible to our target audience, which begins at age 12. --Ed Poor ^Talk 14:37, 4 November 2008 (EST)

• Will do. But I'll be sure to add in something for the upper reaches of our target audience, too ... --Wikinterpreter

There's no need to reinvent the wheel. Our Conservapedia:Guidelines#Article level says:

Articles should be written as much as possible to be understandable at a high school (ages 14 to 18) level, in order to ensure they will be accessible and educational to students. If more complex information is necessary, as in advanced math entries, then it should be explained as simply as possible in the introduction, and a full explanation should follow in the body of the article.

(emphasis in original) Philip J. Rayment 00:52, 5 November 2008 (EST)

Try labeling it with something like Formal definitions of basic math concepts. --Ed Poor ^Talk 15:33, 4 November 2008 (EST)

Not to worry, the putative article seems fairly good for all. While you're online, Ed, could I ask a quick favour? I've made a handy diagram to go with the article's instructions for columnar addition, but can't upload it. Could you upload it for me? Pwetty pwease? I've stored it here, so if you could put it on, that would be great. I could also do ones for long division, and long division of polynomials, should it be of help. --Wikinterpreter

Hooray for Ed Poor! Thanks mate. --Wikinterpreter

Any time. --Ed Poor ^Talk 17:18, 4 November 2008 (EST)

Ed. What are you doing with the addition articles (addition, sum, addend, etc)? They were written at a high school level. Addend was not circular -- it was written in terms of addition -- yet you deleted it. You replaced addition with a redirect to sum, which (as has been pointed out to you) was written in terms of addition! The definition on the addition page was perfectly at the high school level -- they do teach that it is a symmetric operation (commutative) and it's associative, has identity, etc. These are all BASIC properties that are taught in 4th grade or earlier! Your present comment on the talk page for sum makes it seem like we're gearing the mathematics articles to kindergartners. I would be devastated if you expect beginning high schoolers (12 year olds, by your own standard) to not have a thorough knowledge of addition. The definition you are proposing is far beneath their understanding and the content was not "abstruse number theory". --Foxtrot 17:47, 4 November 2008 (EST)

I must admit, when I learnt long addition (in a Church school, no less), I was 6 ... I took the lead from Ed's comment. Nonetheless, I can sort of see how you could build it up: start with counting, then you've got long addition, then it isn't much of leap forwards to long division, then, from that, it's a fairly short distance to long division of polynomials, which are high-level maths. --Wikinterpreter

Wikinterpreter, your current version is a significant improvement over the redirect. However, the article (particularly the "methods of addition" section) is still grounded in just considering addition of whole numbers, and this is the main issue I have with Ed's comment on the Talk:Sum page -- counting is only an appropriate explanation for whole numbers (or integers, if you want to consider negatives). It becomes very cumbersome for talking about adding fractions (rational numbers) and completely ineffective for talking about real numbers. All these kinds of numbers are ones that students will have seen plenty of by the time they're twelve and there's no reason to gear the definition at a preschool level and then build it up, when beginning high schoolers are at a much higher level of mathematical maturity by then. -Foxtrot 18:15, 4 November 2008 (EST)

Two suggestions:

1. Move this discussion to talk:addition
2. Consider that our readers began learning about addition by adding integers. Very few people are good at adding fractions; do you know off the top of your head that 1/3 + 1/4 = 7/12? --Ed Poor ^Talk 19:00, 4 November 2008 (EST)

I think everyone began learning about addition by adding integers, but at this point (high school) they know that addition can be done on other kinds of numbers. So the intro paragraph should be fairly general, saying something like "addition is an operation/function that takes two numbers (addends) and produces a third (the sum). This operation has the intuitive sense of combining two different sizes to yield a total size. In its most basic form, addition is a function on integers, where it corresponds to counting, however addition can be performed on many different numbers and numerical objects. Addition is commutative, associative and has an identity, zero." After that, we can get into specifics about the simplest and most specific case (whole numbers/integers) and then fractions, decimals, and then real numbers (and beyond -- complex numbers, adding functions, matrices, etc). I think the main exposition should build up the idea from basics, but the intro should define the term in the more general form that they'll be using in high school. -Foxtrot 19:56, 4 November 2008 (EST)