Changes

::To Bolly's defense, Bugler was the first to use the term "clique" in this discussion. And I would gladly be discussing this with Mr. Schlafly if he would participate in this conversation.--'' '''[[user:JArneal|<font color="#006666" >JArneal</font>]]''' '' 21:07, 2 December 2008 (EST)

::To Bolly's defense, Bugler was the first to use the term "clique" in this discussion. And I would gladly be discussing this with Mr. Schlafly if he would participate in this conversation.--'' '''[[user:JArneal|<font color="#006666" >JArneal</font>]]''' '' 21:07, 2 December 2008 (EST)

:::And it was Bolly who first used the term 'posse'. These are just convenient shorthands; but use the terms 'Team C' and Team P' if you consider it preferable. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 04:40, 3 December 2008 (EST)

:::And it was Bolly who first used the term 'posse'. These are just convenient shorthands; but use the terms 'Team C' and Team P' if you consider it preferable. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 04:40, 3 December 2008 (EST)

=== My response to compromise proposal ===

=== My response to compromise proposal ===

:::Ed, I understand you're position and your frustration, but I heard a saying once that "a good compromise is one that leaves everyone angry". The whole point of compromise is that you don't get everything you think you should, and the other side gets the same. The posse aren't going to just let their list be deleted. So instead, you might have to settle for it being moved and adding counter evidence. "let the reader decide" to quote several editors in this debate. --[[User:Bolly|Bolly]] 21:53, 2 December 2008 (EST)

:::Ed, I understand you're position and your frustration, but I heard a saying once that "a good compromise is one that leaves everyone angry". The whole point of compromise is that you don't get everything you think you should, and the other side gets the same. The posse aren't going to just let their list be deleted. So instead, you might have to settle for it being moved and adding counter evidence. "let the reader decide" to quote several editors in this debate. --[[User:Bolly|Bolly]] 21:53, 2 December 2008 (EST)

::::Thank you Ed, for your participation in this conversation. The more sysops we have talking about this the better. And if someone who likes the current Obama article would propose a compromise, that would be appreciated, I'm sure. We need to start moving toward an ultimate compromise, or all of this is useless.--'' '''[[user:JArneal|<font color="#006666" >JArneal</font>]]''' '' 21:58, 2 December 2008 (EST)

:::Thank you Ed, for your participation in this conversation. The more sysops we have talking about this the better. And if someone who likes the current Obama article would propose a compromise, that would be appreciated, I'm sure. We need to start moving toward an ultimate compromise, or all of this is useless.--'' '''[[user:JArneal|<font color="#006666" >JArneal</font>]]''' '' 21:58, 2 December 2008 (EST)

:::::Philip said: ''Unless Andy agrees with a compromise, this is going nowhere''. Now does he mean, 'unless Andy cuts this Gordian knot'? Well, he has. Andy has made his views quite clear, and these are to support the status quo '''which is a compromise''': none of the points that Philip rages against are presented as facts, just as evidence to be considered. Given Philip's impenitent and rebellious behaviour, one is tempted to interpret  ''Unless Andy agrees with a compromise, this is going nowhere'' as ''Unless Andy does as I say'', which is totally unacceptable. Andy is the Leader of Conservapedia, and his views should be respected as those of teh ultimate arbiter. For Philip to carry on and on and on with this sterile debate is damaging Conservapedia, and leads one to question his motives in doing so. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 04:40, 3 December 2008 (EST)

::::Philip said: ''Unless Andy agrees with a compromise, this is going nowhere''. Now does he mean, 'unless Andy cuts this Gordian knot'? Well, he has. Andy has made his views quite clear, and these are to support the status quo '''which is a compromise''': none of the points that Philip rages against are presented as facts, just as evidence to be considered. Given Philip's impenitent and rebellious behaviour, one is tempted to interpret  ''Unless Andy agrees with a compromise, this is going nowhere'' as ''Unless Andy does as I say'', which is totally unacceptable. Andy is the Leader of Conservapedia, and his views should be respected as those of teh ultimate arbiter. For Philip to carry on and on and on with this sterile debate is damaging Conservapedia, and leads one to question his motives in doing so. [[User:Bugler|Bugler]] 04:40, 3 December 2008 (EST)

:::::: "''...which is a compromise...''": Huh? How is that a "compromise"?

::::: "''...which is a compromise...''": Huh? How is that a "compromise"?

:::::: "''...none of the points that Philip rages against are presented as facts...''": Absolutely false, as I've already pointed out.

::::: "''...none of the points that Philip rages against are presented as facts...''": Absolutely false, as I've already pointed out.

:::::: "''... one is tempted to interpret [Philip's comment] as ''Unless Andy does as I say'', which is totally unacceptable.''":  Which totally ignores that it's not just ''my'' opinion, but that of many people including senior administrators, as has been repeatedly pointed out, but you keep ignoring or misrepresenting.

::::: "''... one is tempted to interpret [Philip's comment] as ''Unless Andy does as I say'', which is totally unacceptable.''":  Which totally ignores that it's not just ''my'' opinion, but that of many people including senior administrators, as has been repeatedly pointed out, but you keep ignoring or misrepresenting.

:::::: "''For Philip to carry on and on and on with this sterile debate is damaging Conservapedia...''":  No, making false claims about Obama is damaging Conservapedia.

::::: "''For Philip to carry on and on and on with this sterile debate is damaging Conservapedia...''":  No, making false claims about Obama is damaging Conservapedia.

:::::: "''Andy is the Leader of Conservapedia, and his views should be respected ...''":  I haven't mentioned this yet, but this is one of the most hypocritical claims in this issue.  The hypocrisy is in decrying me for not respecting the leader, whilst the article grossly disrespects the leader-elect of the people posting this rubbish!  (And no, it is not just fair criticism, which I don't have a problem with; it goes far beyond that.)

::::: "''Andy is the Leader of Conservapedia, and his views should be respected ...''":  I haven't mentioned this yet, but this is one of the most hypocritical claims in this issue.  The hypocrisy is in decrying me for not respecting the leader, whilst the article grossly disrespects the leader-elect of the people posting this rubbish!  (And no, it is not just fair criticism, which I don't have a problem with; it goes far beyond that.)

:::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:55, 3 December 2008 (EST)

::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:55, 3 December 2008 (EST)

== "You Say Tomato, I Say Tomatoe; Let's Call The Whole Thing Off!" ==

== "You Say Tomato, I Say Tomatoe; Let's Call The Whole Thing Off!" ==