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Conservapedia:Desk/Abuse (view source)
Revision as of 15:34, December 14, 2008
, 15:34, December 14, 2008→Is (was) Tolkiendil a Vandal?
:Simple questions are always okay. Rhetorical questions might not be. Using "simple questions" as a disguise for opening a debate about the rules is strictly out. Next time I see someone doing this - other than in the [[Debate Topics]] - he's gone. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 12:22, 4 December 2008 (EST)
:Simple questions are always okay. Rhetorical questions might not be. Using "simple questions" as a disguise for opening a debate about the rules is strictly out. Next time I see someone doing this - other than in the [[Debate Topics]] - he's gone. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 12:22, 4 December 2008 (EST)
::Personally I find the actual block the least important issue here. The most important issues are the flagrant breaches of the chain of command, the total lack of recourse on the off chance that abuse occurrs, and the likelyhood of an encouragement of off-site communication (which, to me, seems counter to the idea of having a wiki anyway; why else would the software include talk pages?) leading to an increased likelyhood of placing minors in an inapropriate position. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 13:13, 4 December 2008 (EST)
::Personally I find the actual block the least important issue here. The most important issues are the flagrant breaches of the chain of command, the total lack of recourse on the off chance that abuse occurrs, and the likelyhood of an encouragement of off-site communication (which, to me, seems counter to the idea of having a wiki anyway; why else would the software include talk pages?) leading to an increased likelyhood of placing minors in an inapropriate position. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 13:13, 4 December 2008 (EST)
==Is (was) Tolkiendil a Vandal?==
Ed Poor blocked [[User:Tolkiendil|Tolkiendil]], [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=Ed+Poor&page=User%3ATolkiendil&year=&month=-1 stating]:
* 08:48, 12 December 2008 Ed Poor (Talk | contribs) blocked Tolkiendil (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled) (Inserting nonsense or gibberish into pages or edit comments)
I don't regard Tolkiendil as a vandal, and elaborated this on Ed Poor's talk page:
::As far as I can see, He '''wasn't''' vandalizing the Tolkien articles - most of which he had created. There is - a minor - quibble of interpretation over the role of [[Eowyn]]. When I tried to find a resolution in the internet, I found much of debate instead, nothing clear cut, IMO (and nothing to important). I understand both positions Tolkiendil's and Ed Poor's , but Ed Poor enforces his view via his blocking rights.
::And then there are other minor points. For instance, have a look [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Middle-earth_objects&diff=584641&oldid=581816 here]:
::Tolkiendil had written:'''Herugrim''' was the sword of King [[Théoden]] of [[Lôgrad|Rohan]]. It had been given to Gríma Wormtongue for safekeeping, but was returned to Théoden when he rode to war.
::Ed Poor changes this to: '''Herugrim''' was the sword of King [[Théoden]] of [[Lôgrad|Rohan]]. It had been kept by [[Gríma]] Wormtongue along was "many other things that men had missed", but was taken back to Théoden when he rode to war.
::Ed Poor claims in his edit comment: ''No record that Grima was "given" this sword - or anything else for that matter''
::In '''Book III, Chapter VI''', "''The King of the Golden Hall''". we read:
::<font face="Times New Roman">
::[...] At the moment Háma came again from the hall. Behind him cringing between two other men, came Gríma the Wormtongue. His face was very white. His eyes blinked in the sunlight. Háma knelt and presented to Théoden a long swarod in a scabbard clasped with gold and set with green gems.
::'Here, lord, is Herugrim, your ancient blade', he said. 'It was found in his chest. Loth was he to render up the keys. Many other things are there which men have missed.'
::'You lie,' said Wormtongue. 'And this sword your master himself gave into my keeping.'
::'And he now requires it of you agaian,' said Théoden.'Does this displease you?'[...]</font>
::So Grima - as thief and a liar - claimed in front of Théoden that he was given the sword, and Théoden doesn't deny this. Unnecessary quibble in my opinion: I think that Tolkiendil is right, but Ed Poor's version isn't wrong, altogether. But I think that Ed Poor is very wrong in the way he tries to enforce his version.
::Tolkiendil has made countless edits on the '''Lord of the Ring'''. I daresay that he knows more about Tolkien than any of us, including Ed Poor. But perhaps that's the rub: Maybe Ed Poor doesn't like the idea that someone has a greater knowledge of this subject than he does.
::Of course, there may be a few honest mistakes made by Tolkiendil. The ''infinite'' ban because Ed Poor dislikes some of his interpretations, or because he added to many details, seems to be absolutely unjustified - and the instantaneous deletion of Tolkiendil's user page just undignified!
::OTOH, I don't think that one should take the whole ''middle-earth'' universe to serious, it should be fun!
::BTW, Tolkiendil seems to be right with his categorization of the Eskimo-Aleut languages, too.
::I have said this a couple of times: This high-handed approach to us common editors destroys the spirit which is necessary to be a volunteer on this project. Here, the work of months was disregarded in seconds!
::Therefore, I appeal to Ed Poor to lift the block of Tolkiendil. Though I don't know whether this action is futile, but I hope that Tolkiendil rejoins us editors though he was treated in such a capricious way.
::--[[User:BRichtigen|BRichtigen]] 08:17, 13 December 2008 (EST)
For this, I got a block of one day.
Tolkiendil made more than 1000 edits on CP. Most of these regard Tolkien's ''The Lord of the Ring''. This is - of course - not a central part of CP, but nonetheless, it is nice to have it on board: The book - and the movies- impressed millions of teenagers around the world, and perhaps, one or the other finds via Tolkien to CP.
As far as I can see were Tolkiendil's edits careful and diligent. But we shouldn't forget that we are talking about a piece of fiction, so, there are always different interpretations possible. The examples Ed Poor gave for Tolkiendil's vandalism are examples for such different interpretations: was Éowyn recognized when she was under disguise? Tolkien himself attributed her the male pronouns, so she was shielded from the eyes of the readers. And as no one in Tolkien's needs the loo, why should she be discovered? It's futile to debate about this point (there are endless debates on the net), but it is worse to decree a point of view.
Tolkiendil described ''Rivendall'' as a city. Well, it's more of a village, or a hamlet. But is this chose of wording '''vandalism'''? I don't think so.
As I stated above, this is a discussion at the fringe of CP. Most of us don't take that much interest in ''The Lord of the Rings''. Tolkiendil did, and he put quite an effort in his posts. To disesteem such an effort is to disappoint the editor badly. To destroy his user page within minutes after his block means to add insult to injury.
--[[User:BRichtigen|BRichtigen]] 10:34, 14 December 2008 (EST)