Changes

==Debating==

==Debating==

I really liked the “What really causes AIDS” link due to some claims that science can actually test.  I would like to address each item listed on the website however I am unsure how to proceed on the article page as far as addressing it point by point.  Also, the science presented would be a bit involved for the layman.  However, I believe it would be a great chance to explain the misunderstanding of Mohammed Ali Al-Bayati.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 16:43, 7 January 2009 (EST)

I really liked the “What really causes AIDS” link due to some claims that science can actually test.  I would like to address each item listed on the website however I am unsure how to proceed on the article page as far as addressing it point by point.  Also, the science presented would be a bit involved for the layman.  However, I believe it would be a great chance to explain the misunderstanding of Mohammed Ali Al-Bayati.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 16:43, 7 January 2009 (EST)

*Maybe address the AIDS-like disease Idiopathic CD4+ lymphocytopenia that has no trace of HIV (rare or not, it is a real counterexample to AIDS, which is merely a set of symptons, caused by an HIV virus).  Also maybe this is tangential to the page, but is there a classification for those people who have been found to be immune to AIDS because of their genetics? --[[User:RickD|RickD]] 17:13, 7 January 2009 (EST)

*Maybe address the AIDS-like disease Idiopathic CD4+ [[lymphocytopenia]] that has no trace of HIV (rare or not, it is a real counterexample to AIDS, which is merely a set of symptoms, caused by an HIV virus).  Also maybe this is tangential to the page, but is there a classification for those people who have been found to be immune to AIDS because of their genetics? --[[User:RickD|RickD]] 17:13, 7 January 2009 (EST)

:::To answer RickD's question, ICL is a real syndrom without any known causes at this time.  It does have the same symptoms of AIDS, however it is also know to reverse itself (prognosis is good), which HIV/AIDS does not.  To answer the HIV immunity, it really is not an immunity as much as it is a higher resistance to infection.  The mutation in these people actualy retards the HIV from attaching to the receptors on the cell.  It is not 100%, but it does offer a great amount of resistance.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 15:46, 8 January 2009 (EST)

:::To answer RickD's question, ICL is a real syndrome without any known causes at this time.  It does have the same symptoms of AIDS, however it is also know to reverse itself (prognosis is good), which HIV/AIDS does not.  To answer the HIV immunity, it really is not an immunity as much as it is a higher resistance to infection.  The mutation in these people actualy retards the HIV from attaching to the receptors on the cell.  It is not 100%, but it does offer a great amount of resistance.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 15:46, 8 January 2009 (EST)

::It's probably more important to debunk (or at least summarize) the work of [[Peter Duesberg]], the scientist who isolated the first [[cancer gene]] and mapped the genetic structure of [[retrovirus]]es. [http://www.duesberg.com/index.html] --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] ^{[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]} 17:17, 7 January 2009 (EST)

::It's probably more important to debunk (or at least summarize) the work of [[Peter Duesberg]], the scientist who isolated the first [[cancer gene]] and mapped the genetic structure of [[retrovirus]]es. [http://www.duesberg.com/index.html] --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] ^{[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]} 17:17, 7 January 2009 (EST)

:::I agree with Ed.  Just listing the scientists does not explain why they have issue with the HIV/AIDS relationship.  A person can make the claim that he or she does believe that chlorophy is what makes the leaves of plants green, however without providing a reason for their belief it is all but impossible to show why it may be false.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 14:42, 8 January 2009 (EST)

:::I agree with Ed.  Just listing the scientists does not explain why they have issue with the HIV/AIDS relationship.  A person can make the claim that he or she does believe that chlorophyll is what makes the leaves of plants green, however without providing a reason for their belief it is all but impossible to show why it may be false.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 14:42, 8 January 2009 (EST)

==Koch's postulates not met?==

==Koch's postulates not met?==

Perhaps such a test is beyond medical science today. Still, the only way anyone could be convinced is if human tissue (e.g., a few live adult human cells donated from an adult) were infected in a laboratory environment and the effects of the HIV virus could be demonstrated to cause immuno-deficiency.  The problem appears to be that there is no evidence of the HIV virus infection in the absence of any other possible AIDS causing mechanism.  There are always other agents present in the disease vector.  And it would be ethically impossible to inject a medically purified HIV virus sample into a human to test for such things.  That sort of nightmare only happens in disease-of-the-week movies I hope. --[[User:RickD|RickD]] 00:23, 8 January 2009 (EST)

Perhaps such a test is beyond medical science today. Still, the only way anyone could be convinced is if human tissue (e.g., a few live adult human cells donated from an adult) were infected in a laboratory environment and the effects of the HIV virus could be demonstrated to cause immuno-deficiency.  The problem appears to be that there is no evidence of the HIV virus infection in the absence of any other possible AIDS causing mechanism.  There are always other agents present in the disease vector.  And it would be ethically impossible to inject a medically purified HIV virus sample into a human to test for such things.  That sort of nightmare only happens in disease-of-the-week movies I hope. --[[User:RickD|RickD]] 00:23, 8 January 2009 (EST)

:RickD, Koch's Postulates have been met, look at the main article.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:40, 8 January 2009 (EST)

:RickD, Koch's Postulates have been met, look at the main article.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:40, 8 January 2009 (EST)