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Talk:Genesis 1-8 (Translated) (view source)
Revision as of 00:45, November 29, 2009
, 00:45, November 29, 2009→24 hours rather than days?
::Based on this, there should be little doubt that the language in this section of the text is stated definitively, and should not be altered. As a result, I have removed the portion of the analysis section defining the meaning of 'yowm'. [[User:zlul355|zlul355]] 08:10, 28 Nov 2009 (EDT)
::Based on this, there should be little doubt that the language in this section of the text is stated definitively, and should not be altered. As a result, I have removed the portion of the analysis section defining the meaning of 'yowm'. [[User:zlul355|zlul355]] 08:10, 28 Nov 2009 (EDT)
:::I reverted it back. The reason is simple: it is ''only that verse'' in which a secular scientist, theologian, or atheist has a problem with concerning a 24-hour period. It has to do with creation vs. evolution, and these people expect ''that'' verse - and only that verse - to mean an unlimited amount of time, citing the oft-quoted "a day to God is as a thousand years." With that logic in mind, how much time did Moses spend in the Wilderness? Moses wrote both Genesis and Exodus, so if he meant one thing when God was involved with the Creation, then he meant the same thing while traveling in the Wilderness. So was it forty years, or 14,600,000 years? After Moses died, his protegie Joshua took up the leadership, and circled Jericho for a week...or did they circle the town for 7,000 years? Did Jonah spend three days or three thousand years inside that whale? Did Jesus spend 40,000 years being tempted by Satan? A "day" in the Bible means exactly 24 hours; nothing more, nothing less. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 12:39, 28 November 2009 (EST)
:::I reverted it back. The reason is simple: it is ''only that verse'' in which a secular scientist, theologian, or atheist has a problem with concerning a 24-hour period. It has to do with creation vs. evolution, and these people expect ''that'' verse - and only that verse - to mean an unlimited amount of time, citing the oft-quoted "a day to God is as a thousand years." With that logic in mind, how much time did Moses spend in the Wilderness? Moses wrote both Genesis and Exodus, so if he meant one thing when God was involved with the Creation, then he meant the same thing while traveling in the Wilderness. So was it forty years, or 14,600,000 years? After Moses died, his protegie Joshua took up the leadership, and circled Jericho for a week...or did they circle the town for 7,000 years? Did Jonah spend three days or three thousand years inside that whale? Did Jesus spend 40,000 years being tempted by Satan? A "day" in the Bible means exactly 24 hours; nothing more, nothing less. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 12:39, 28 November 2009 (EST)
::Before I begin, I apologize for the length of my response. Hopefully it isn't difficult to read. If it would be helpful for me to edit some of the post for clarity, I'd be happy to do so...
::Karajou - Are you implying that I must be a secular scientist, theologian or atheist if I attempt to provide evidence for a claim? Respectfully, if this is the case you are sorely mistaken. In addition, I hasten to add that in my opinion my argument does not involve creation vs. evolution, only the evidence that my claim can be valid, while still maintaining His word. More on that later.
::On the whole, you bring up an excellent point which I did not consider at the time of my initial justification. For this, I apologize. However, I don't believe your argument is definitive, and I still believe that both viewpoints should be considered for further debate. As such, I will not change anything until a final decision has been agreed upon.
::In my opinion, there are two essential areas where your response is lacking. Firstly, as I mentioned earlier, higher latitudes experience longer or shorted solar days based on the season. From what I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), the Hebrew calendar took this into account and adjusted the observation of days accordingly in these parts of the world. Naturally, this system would have been in affect at the time Genesis was written. However, it certainly wouldn't have been in effect at the dawn of creation. Those who eventually created the calendar would have had to adopt these rules to account for the fact that one day (sunset to sunset) in the far north during the summer or winter would equal 60-70 days in Jerusalem during the same period. Again, this was a construct of mortals, not God. In my opinion, the notion of God '''designing''' and '''creating''' a World in which time would eventually be experienced by His people differently based on where they were located on it does not seem plausible. I know this doesn't sound like a good reponse but stay with me because it leads into my second point.
::As we know from Exodus 7:7, Moses was 80 when he led the Jews out of Egypt in the year 1446 BC and lived for 120 years, meaning he was born in 1526 BC and died in 1406 BC. We also know that Adam was created in the first year of the Jewish calendar, and we are currently in the 5770th year, meaning that the time between the creation of man and Moses's birth is around 2234 years (I know they aren't equivalent or congruent systems but for the purposes of this discussion, I believe they should suffice). During these 2200+ years, the Lord lowered the average lifespan from infinity (Enoch has not died) to 120 (Genesis 6:3), with many figures prior to this event living well into their ninth century, including Adam who died at the age of 930.
::This being said, I'm fairly certain that by the time of Moses, civilizations had moved far enough north that a midnight sun would have been observed for weeks or months on end. Assuming that these civilizations had followed the Hebrew Calendar, this would have meant that one "solar day", as observed by these peoples, would have been the equivalent of 60-70 days as observed by Moses in the same period, while he was writting Genesis. According to your claim, Moses states one day of creation was the equivalent of one of our solar 24-hr day. If this is true, Moses - and therefore God - seems to have overlooked the fact that His concept of time doesn't apply to all of His subjects.
::Now, this may not seem like a significant issue. It is true, there may be one or more aspects that I overlooked, which I welcome you or someone else to mention. In the absence of these considerations, however, my argument on this point is simple:
::-- If God intended His word to apply to everyone made in His image, why wouldn't he create a World where everyone followed the same word, i.e. observing the Sabbath at the same time as people in other parts of the world? Why would he rather create a universe where adjustments or decrees needed to be made by mortals, after the fact? Though I don't wish to be guilty of blasphemy, to be frank, my understanding of the all-knowing, all-powerful, omnipotent God of Abraham would not allow for such an oversight to be possible.
::Given this, I feel that it is implausible that Moses intended a day in Creation to be the equivalent of a solar day. Instead, I prefer to believe what is stated in the Book of Jubilees (4:29-31):
''::"that he [Adam] lacked 70 years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die."''
::Without going into any further detail (my fingers are starting to hurt from all the typing :-)), this would mean that Adam died in the same day of his creation, paving the road for everything that followed and NOT affecting Creationism theory, as you mentioned in your response. As for why we observe time as we do, I feel it is similar to what God did when he lowered the average age on two occasions (the first already mentioned above and the second from 120 years to 70-80 years as per Psalms 90:10), speeding up time in the process. In other words, if we take the average lifespan in the time of Methuselah (969 years in his case or slightly less than one day of Creation) and compare it to the average lifespan of today (70-80 years), you can make a plausible inference as to why the 1000 year theory is valid.
::Of course, no one including myself can know for sure if this is the definitive truth. Nevertheless, given the considerations I have just presented, I hope that you and everyone else affected by this issue can agree that a discussion is worth pursuing, instead of merely appealing to blind faith.
::Note: I apologize for any grammatical or spelling mistakes. I'm quite new at this and am still trying to get acquainted. Also, there are probably some sources that should have been mentioned. It was not a deliberate act, I was simply trying to save time. If you would like, I will be happy to post links. I look forward to your response, as well as anyone else willing to offer their views on this important matter. [[User:zlul355|zlul355]] 19:45, 28 Nov 2009 (EDT)
==baramin==
==baramin==