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Line 516: − :::#(John 4:52) Which answer would you give to a kid in Sunday School who asks: ''How did the servants knew that it was 1 o'clock?''+ − :::::People could tell time 2000 years ago. In fact, people could tell time 5000 years ago. A sundial is one obvious way; there may have been others too.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:33, 17 April 2011 (EDT)+ − :::#(John 4:46-54) You wrote: ''The instantaneous healing is central to the purpose of the event.'' and ''the point of the story is that it happened at the same moment''. How so? Why had the healing to be spontaneous, when the creation of the world took six days? − + − :::#(Matthew 27:51) At [[Bible Translation Issues]], no. 17, you wrote: ''The word "behold" appears frequently in the KJV but lacks a modern equivalent. Is there a strategy for this dealing with this concept? Possibilities include "rejoice", "observe", "listen", "note that", and ignoring it altogether (which modern versions often do). '' Here, you omit the nuance ''at the moment'' which you used in Matthew 27:51. I checked a couple of dictionaries and failed to find ''at the moment'' as a translation of ἰδού. Where did you find it?+ − + − + − :::#Isn't it a little bit unsettling that this crucial ''nuance'' of ἰδού is used in CBP's translation for the first and only time in Matthew 27:51, a verse which is used later on in [[Counterexamples to Relativity]]?+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Talk:John 1-7 (Translated) (view source)
Revision as of 14:53, April 18, 2011
, 14:53, April 18, 2011→Qui tacet, consentire videtur: google ranking, second time
:::I hope you find the time to substantiate your statement - and perhaps to answer to the questions I have repeatedly asked, namely:
:::I hope you find the time to substantiate your statement - and perhaps to answer to the questions I have repeatedly asked, namely:
===(John 4:52) Which answer would you give to a kid in Sunday School who asks: ''How did the servants knew that it was 1 o'clock?''===
People could tell time 2000 years ago. In fact, people could tell time 5000 years ago. A sundial is one obvious way; there may have been others too.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:33, 17 April 2011 (EDT)
:::::No specific element of the creation took six days. There was no delay between "let there be light," and the appearance of light, for example.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:33, 17 April 2011 (EDT)
===(John 4:46-54) You wrote: ''The instantaneous healing is central to the purpose of the event.'' and ''the point of the story is that it happened at the same moment''. How so? Why had the healing to be spontaneous, when the creation of the world took six days?===
No specific element of the creation took six days. There was no delay between "let there be light," and the appearance of light, for example.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:33, 17 April 2011 (EDT)
:::::As with any Greek word lacking an English equivalent, the translation of ἰδού requires examining the context in which it was used in order to translate it. Search on: ἰδού "at that moment" , and you'll see there are 20,000 references on the internet.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:33, 17 April 2011 (EDT)
===(Matthew 27:51) At [[Bible Translation Issues]], no. 17, you wrote: ''The word "behold" appears frequently in the KJV but lacks a modern equivalent. Is there a strategy for this dealing with this concept? Possibilities include "rejoice", "observe", "listen", "note that", and ignoring it altogether (which modern versions often do). '' Here, you omit the nuance ''at the moment'' which you used in Matthew 27:51. I checked a couple of dictionaries and failed to find ''at the moment'' as a translation of ἰδού. Where did you find it?===
:::#(Matthew 27:51) The ''New International Version'' starts the verse with ''At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn..'', but this ''at that moment'' seems to be a translation of the leading καὶ (in fact of the string of καὶ-καὶ-καὶ), while ἰδού is dropped from the sentence altogether - as you observed rightly in [[Bible Translation Issues]].
As with any Greek word lacking an English equivalent, the translation of ἰδού requires examining the context in which it was used in order to translate it. Search on: ἰδού "at that moment" , and you'll see there are 20,000 references on the internet.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:33, 17 April 2011 (EDT)
:When I first read this argument, I thought you were joking! Obviously you havn't read what I wrote at [[Talk:Matthew_20-28_(Translated)#ἰδού]] (... ἰδού and wow: 100,000 hits ...). Well, this explains why you erased the source-tag there without introducing a proper source. I'll reinsert it, again. Anyway, when trying to use google - counts as an argument, one should at least peek at the results. I looked up the top-10 (non-Conservapedia) results. Clearly you didn't do so, or you would have found a list similar to this one:
:#[http://www.backyardprofessor.com/the_backyard_professor/2011/01/%E1%BC%B0%CE%B4%CE%BF%E1%BD%BA-%CE%B3%E1%BD%B0%CF%81-%E1%BC%A1-%CE%B2%CE%B1%CF%83%CE%B9%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CF%84%CE%BF%E1%BF%A6-%CE%B8%CE%B5%CE%BF%E1%BF%A6-%E1%BC%90%CE%BD%CF%84%E1%BD%B8%CF%82-%E1%BD%91%CE%BC%E1%BF%B6%CE%BD-%E1%BC%90%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BD-the-kingdom-of-god-is-within-yo.html the backyard professor]: "at that moment" isn't there as a translation of a Greek verse, but appears in an unreleted sentence in the sidebar: ''He would have continued but at that moment my very obedient daughter who was listening leaned over to me and asked quite audibly in her shrill little four year old girl voice, 'Mom, what is butt dust?' ''
:#[http://chuff.wordpress.com/2010/06/26/when-veil/ A Question of When: The Temple Veil] An interesting blog entry, arguing that the NRSV get's it wrong: ''(The NRSV does indeed read “at that moment,” but this is a superfluous addition to the original Greek, which reads ιδου — which is not at all a measure of time, but rather it is a verb in the imperative, meaning behold or lo. Young’s Literal, which was more painstaking in its care not to add anything, does not add this “at this moment,” which is not in the Bible. What is there, ιδου, suggests a simultaneous occurrence or one that is a direct result (he died and behold! this happened). So far, so same.)''
:#[http://christianisrael.freevar.com/Acts+11:11 Christian Israel] "at that moment" appears as a translation of ἐξαυτῆς, not of ἰδού.
:#[http://www.prophecyfellowship.org/archive/index.php/t-311992.html Prophecy Felloswhip] a discussion of the actual verse, but with the conclusion that "at that moment" is not a viable translation for ἰδού...
:#[http://net.bible.org/#!bible/Luke+2 Bible.org, Luke 2] "at that moment" appears as a translation of καὶ αὐτὴ τῇ ὥρᾳ - "and at this very hour", while we read - concerning another verse: "The Greek word ἰδού (idou) at the beginning of this statement has not been translated."
:#[http://revpatrickcomerford.blogspot.com/2011/02/looking-at-transfiguration-through.html Rev. Patrick] There are some verses translated, but "at that moment" appears independently in the sentence: ''In Orthodox theology, the Transfiguration is not only a feast in honour of Christ, but a feast of the Holy Trinity, for all three Persons of the Trinity are present at that moment''
:#[http://www.universalis.com/G/USA/20110417/mass.htm Mass Readings for Palm Sunday] "at that moment" is used to translate εὐθέως
:#[http://www.errancy.com/was-the-temple-curtain-torn-before-or-at-the-moment-of-jesus-death/ Was the temple curtain torn before, or at the moment of, Jesus’ death?] ''"'Matthew doesn’t say “At that moment, the curtain…”. He says “And, behold (Kai idou), the curtain…”.** So nothing in the actual words of Scripture implies an ordering of these events. The loud cry and final breath might have occurred before, during or after the rending of the veil and all of the Gospel words would be consistent with the events."''
:#[http://alkitab.sabda.org/passage.php?passage=Mat%2026:47-56&tab=alt Net Bible] ''The Greek word ἰδού (idou) has not been translated because it has no exact English equivalent here, but adds interest and emphasis (BDAG 468 s.v. 1).'', while "at that moment" is used to translate ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ὥρᾳ
:#[http://scripturetext.com/acts/11-11.htm SciptureText Acts 11:11] Again, "at that moment" is used as a translation of ἐξαυτῆς while ἰδού is translated as "lo", "behold" - or simply left out.
:'''So, none of these works as a reference for your claim.''' Aschlafy, I understand that you have not much time at hand. But it should have been obvious from the beginning that an appeal to a google ranking has no place in a serious project like this translation. To make me stating the obvious ([[Talk:Matthew_20-28_(Translated)#ἰδού|here]] is bad enough. Getting me to make it ''blatantly'' obvious (as I have done above) is a waste of my time. Please remember that an argument is not only about ''participation'', but about ''contribution''!
:[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 10:53, 18 April 2011 (EDT)
===(Matthew 27:51) The ''New International Version'' starts the verse with ''At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn..'', but this ''at that moment'' seems to be a translation of the leading καὶ (in fact of the string of καὶ-καὶ-καὶ), while ἰδού is dropped from the sentence altogether - as you observed rightly in [[Bible Translation Issues]].===
===Isn't it a little bit unsettling that this crucial ''nuance'' of ἰδού is used in CBP's translation for the first and only time in Matthew 27:51, a verse which is used later on in [[Counterexamples to Relativity]]?
:::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:49, 17 April 2011 (EDT)
:::[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:49, 17 April 2011 (EDT)