Talk:Social Democracy

The quote by Friedrich Hayek should be removed. If the article were longer and structured differently the quote might belong in a criticism subcategory or something. As it is now, it just seems as if it were thrown in as a petty smear. What may have seemed true in 1945 doesn't apply to modern civil libertarian social democracies.

These other socialist or social democratic groups could be added as references:

 www.sp-usa.org
 www.dsausa.org/dsa.html

I'm guessing that the one that talks about WalMart is probably real. I don't know which of the others are spoofs or not.

Lenin

Lenin ordered the execution of Social Democrats, Gulag Archipelago, Vol. I page 30.

How much of Marxist doubletalk, especially cited to marxist.org, should we allow without full and proper context? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 16:25, 23 September 2019 (EDT)

To be fair, those specific quotes were also cited by Diana West when explaining the roots of Obama's anti-cop rhetoric (in fact, that's where I found the quotes originally). I added them to other articles because Lenin did specifically indicate Communism and Democracy were one and the same in those quotes as well as other quotes (like the one about how democracy is indispensable from socialism or something like that). Pokeria1 (talk) 21:21, 23 September 2019 (EDT)

Adolf Hitler was a mass murderer, too. Do cite Adolf Hitler as some scholarly expert on popular political theories? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum}

When people claim democracy and socialism are different when in reality they're both the same thing since at least the French Revolution (and both bad, BTW), yeah, actually, we do have to cite their words. And for what it's worth, I made sure to cite Woodrow Wilson regarding the whole democracy and socialism comparisons, and while not one of our better presidents, he's a saint compared to Marx, Lenin, and Hitler at least. Pokeria1 (talk) 21:29, 23 September 2019 (EDT)

I have to disagree. Lenin was cut throat murderer. That should be emphasized. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 22:03, 23 September 2019 (EDT)

Who said anything about not emphasizing that Lenin was a cut-throat murderer? If anything, emphasizing that Lenin was a cut-throat murderer and also listing his support for social democracy would highlight to people that social democracy, heck, democracy itself is a scourge that needs to be eliminated (don't forget, the founding fathers were against the notion of a democracy. Well, most of them anyway, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine are debatable since they supported the democratic French Revolution and its excesses). Pokeria1 (talk) 23:07, 23 September 2019 (EDT)

Socialism has nothing to do with democracy, and Lenin is hardly an authority on the subject. All 'social democracy' is, is incremental socialism, which at some point wipes out democracy completely. No amount of Marxist doubletalk and dialectic will change or obscure that fact. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 23:12, 23 September 2019 (EDT)

Who said Lenin was the only authority on the subject? I also cited quotes from Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, and even Woodrow Wilson, and the latter's not a socialist in any way other than maybe the progressive sense (certainly not a Marxist). And make no mistake, I'm even willing to cite Jacobin stuff from Robespierre and Louis de Saint Just if I'm going to prove they do in fact have a connection. And just as an FYI, Wilson himself said regarding democracy and socialism, and I quote, "[I]t is very clear that in fundamental theory, socialism and democracy are almost, if not quite, one and the same. They both rest at bottom upon the absolute right of the community to determine its own destiny and that of its members. Men as communities are supreme over men as individuals." And quite frankly, that only proves democracy's self-defeating, which is exactly the same lesson the French Revolution taught (you know, the same French Revolution that inspired Marx, Engels, and Lenin into creating Marxism-Leninism?). Pokeria1 (talk) 23:18, 23 September 2019 (EDT)

Lenin was a criminal and murderer. He's not an authority or theoretician on any subject. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 01:32, 24 September 2019 (EDT)

Maybe not, but Woodrow Wilson sure is based on this essay. And even Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels at least qualify despite being criminals and wannabe mass murderers due to creating the ideology in its present form. Pokeria1 (talk) 07:56, 24 September 2019 (EDT)

It's sort of the difference between Anton LeVey and Charles Manson; LeVey preached the hate and Satanism; Manson put it into practice. Le Vey was the theoretic expert; Manson we do not elevate to the status of a scholarly expert. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 08:59, 24 September 2019 (EDT)