Changes

:::::Let's be clear about who teaches what.<br>The Catholic Church has utterly condemned the [[Pelagianism|Pelagian "gospel of salvation by works"]]. The Church absolutely condemns the idea that salvation can be earned. It can't. Works make faith complete, just as St. James teaches. "Faith without works is dead. You see that a man is '''justified''' by '''works''' and '''not by faith alone.'''<br>'''Anyone''' who says the Catholic Church teaches that salvation must be earned knows nothing, and is seriously guilty of [[Misrepresentation|misrepresenting]] Catholic doctrine with a gross [[falsehood]] against the truth. <br> '''Anyone''' who says that the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus does not save by his blood in baptism through the Catholic Church is guilty of seriously misrepresenting Catholic doctrine with a gross falsehood against the truth. <br> The Catholic Church teaches instead that salvation is <br>'''''solely by the grace and justification of Jesus Christ alone by the power of the Holy Spirit through the [[sacrament]] of baptism [[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|ex opere operato]]'''''. <br> Proof of this is set forth clearly in the [http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm '''''The Catechism of the Catholic Church''''', Part Three: Life in Christ, Section One: Man's Vocation: Life in the Spirit, Chapter Three: God's Salvation: Law and Grace, Article 2: Grace and Justification, I-IV, numbers '''1987-2029'''] - ''citing abundant Bible support'', '''Rom 3:22;''' cf. '''6:3-4; Rom 6:8-11;''' Cf. '''1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4; Mt 4:17; Rom 3:21-26; Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16; Rom 6:19, 22; Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 2:7-9; Jn 4:14; 7:38-39; 2 Cor 5:17-18; Rom 12:6-8; Mt 7:20; Rom 8:28-30; Mt 5:48;''' Cf. '''2 Tim 4; Rev 21:2; Mt 16:24.''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:24, 3 November 2019 (EST)

:::::Let's be clear about who teaches what.<br>The Catholic Church has utterly condemned the [[Pelagianism|Pelagian "gospel of salvation by works"]]. The Church absolutely condemns the idea that salvation can be earned. It can't. Works make faith complete, just as St. James teaches. "Faith without works is dead. You see that a man is '''justified''' by '''works''' and '''not by faith alone.'''<br>'''Anyone''' who says the Catholic Church teaches that salvation must be earned knows nothing, and is seriously guilty of [[Misrepresentation|misrepresenting]] Catholic doctrine with a gross [[falsehood]] against the truth. <br> '''Anyone''' who says that the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus does not save by his blood in baptism through the Catholic Church is guilty of seriously misrepresenting Catholic doctrine with a gross falsehood against the truth. <br> The Catholic Church teaches instead that salvation is <br>'''''solely by the grace and justification of Jesus Christ alone by the power of the Holy Spirit through the [[sacrament]] of baptism [[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|ex opere operato]]'''''. <br> Proof of this is set forth clearly in the [http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm '''''The Catechism of the Catholic Church''''', Part Three: Life in Christ, Section One: Man's Vocation: Life in the Spirit, Chapter Three: God's Salvation: Law and Grace, Article 2: Grace and Justification, I-IV, numbers '''1987-2029'''] - ''citing abundant Bible support'', '''Rom 3:22;''' cf. '''6:3-4; Rom 6:8-11;''' Cf. '''1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4; Mt 4:17; Rom 3:21-26; Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16; Rom 6:19, 22; Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 2:7-9; Jn 4:14; 7:38-39; 2 Cor 5:17-18; Rom 12:6-8; Mt 7:20; Rom 8:28-30; Mt 5:48;''' Cf. '''2 Tim 4; Rev 21:2; Mt 16:24.''' --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:24, 3 November 2019 (EST)

::::::You're a day late and dollar short. You're already on record claiming that a work - physical baptism - is necessary for salvation. That's what this whole discussion has been about. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]} 18:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)

::::::You're a day late and dollar short. You're already on record claiming that a work - physical baptism - is necessary for salvation. That's what this whole discussion has been about. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]} 18:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)

:::::::God does the work of salvation in baptism through the power of the Holy Spirit in [[sacrament]]al water which He ordained as the ordinary means of salvation ''[[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|ex opere operato]]'', not man.--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:45, 3 November 2019 (EST)

:::::::God does the work of salvation in baptism through the power of the Holy Spirit in [[sacrament]]al water baptism which He ordained as the ordinary means of salvation ''[[Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis|ex opere operato]]'', not man.--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:45, 3 November 2019 (EST)

::::::::Secondly, elsewhere on this page you asked, "Where does it say the church can't save?" I responded by saying even the Catholic church does not teach that the church can save. You just dug out church teaching:

::::::::Secondly, elsewhere on this page you asked, "Where does it say the church can't save?" I responded by saying even the Catholic church does not teach that the church can save. You just dug out church teaching:

:::::::::''The Catholic Church teaches instead that salvation is '''solely''' by the grace and justification of '''Jesus Christ alone''' by the power of the Holy Spirit through baptism.

:::::::::''The Catholic Church teaches instead that salvation is '''solely''' by the grace and justification of '''Jesus Christ alone''' by the power of the Holy Spirit through baptism.