Difference between revisions of "Conservapedia:Sysop complaint documentation"

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== ColinR ==
 
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Deleted the archive I created last night for Sysop and Admin Abuse/Conservative
 
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I just restored it. Colin, I beg of you, please don't start deleting history here, okay?  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 00:35, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:The archive was never deleted. Anyone who looks at the page history will realize this, all I did was move the archive out of the mainspace into the correct namespace, leaving a temporarily broken link, which the brilliant editor above me equates to it being deleted. <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 00:37, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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Oh yeah?  What is this? '''00:11, 10 April 2007 ColinR (Talk | contribs | block) deleted "Conservapedia:Sysop and Admin Abuse/Conservative Archive 1" (content was: '#REDIRECT Conservapedia:Sysop and Admin Abuse/Archive 1' (and the only contributor was 'ColinR'))'''--~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 00:39, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:THAT WASN'T THE ARCHIVE!!! THAT IS A REDIRECT. LOOK AT THE FREAKIN' CONTENT LISTED!!! <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 00:40, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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Read above.  Does the system not say it was an archive, Colin?  When I cliked the link for the archive I made, it said the page had been deleted.  The delete log says you deleted it. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 00:44, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Further, if you did anything to the archive I asked for help on last night, and you were among those who refused, and you came around tonight or earlier today and moved or fixed anything, without telling me, it is just as bad.  Yes, you do have to inform, elite one. Still, the links to the archives were still missing on the Conervative/abuse page and the Sysop/Admin page that Philip was into.  There were other posts asking what happened to the archives.  Further insults will not be tolerated, Colin. You have had your very last warning. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 00:52, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:TK, your comment makes no sense, and you even admitted that I didn't delete the archive links. All I did was move the archives out of the mainspace to their correct spot, something that people have done before (think Sid) and you have no clue what's going on and flip out. I have not insulted you, only asked serious questions, and you respond with false accusations and threats. <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 00:55, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::*Colin, I admitted no such thing.  The system said, when I entered the link to the archive I created, that you had deleted it.  If you deleted a re-direct, and replaced it, in another "Lone Ranger" stunt, elite one, without posting about, or telling me, you still forgot to replace the links to it!  Other people noticed, and posted about it.  ''Like I said, those days are over now, doing whatever you feel like, and you have had your final warning.''  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 00:58, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::The archive link you created was in the mainspace, where it '''didn't''' belong. Thus I moved it out of the mainspace, only to realize I had moved it to the wrong spot, thus I moved it again to the correct spot (where it is now) and deleted the redirects, since one was in the mainspace and the other was a double redirect (and both were not needed). You accuse me of a lone ranger stunt, but your archiving seems to be just as "elitist" as my actions. Quit with the empty threats and baseless accusations. I'm getting tired of your false claims anytime you don't understand something. And I don't have to tell you every time I do something, you're not my keeper, nor is anyone on here. If you have a problem doing whatever they feel like, why not "complain" to almost every editor on this site. I'm through with this crap, if you have something valid and worthwhile to complain about, then we'll talk. Until then, GOOD DAY, SIR. <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 01:04, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Hmmm, I could have swore you said earlier you didn't delete anything, but now it seems you say you did.  I am getting confused.  And yes, Colin, things are changing, for the better, and you will start to communicate, with me, and the other Sysops. I very politely posted, asking for help with the archive, last night,  and you didn't see fit to offer to help, like any of the Sysop's should have, that knew how to do it.  That is one of your obligations in taking the job.  If you didn't know or think that, you do now. I can't do anything to save you now, Colin.  Your attitude marks you as someone not really needed here anymore, more a part of the problem, rather than the solution.  It makes me sad, but it is now up to Andy to decide.  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 01:14, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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== TK and Copyright (Zach Johnson) ==
 
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''This is a copy of the post from Aschlafly's talk page. TK insisted that I post it here, too.''
 
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{{QuoteBox|Since the material was re-worded, perhaps Andy, since he is an Attorney, would be a better judge than Colin, CgDay and you Sid, as to what is wholesale copying, and exactly how much change is needed to avoid infringement suits, eh? Nothing I sourced was from Wikipedia, and I have never seen their material on the subject. --~ TK MyTalk 18:30, 9 April 2007 (EDT)}}
 
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As per the above comment, you are strongly invited to take a look at [[Talk:Zach Johnson]]. Short summary: Copyrighted material has been copy-pasted (from a news article and quite likely from Wikipedia) with minor rewordings in some sentences. The material had been added by TK, who is now in a revert war to keep the copyrighted material until somebody creates a better version. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 18:48, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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== TK and sarcasm ==
 
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While this is not abuse per say, it is a question of what is the appropriate conduct for a sysop?  I continue to be concerned about [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk%3ATheory_of_evolution&diff=95497&oldid=95484 this edit] and [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Theory_of_evolution&diff=prev&oldid=95473 this edit] which shows a disrespect for other editors on this site.  Is this the type of example that is people are suggesting that be followed?  (Yes, I know this is a slippery slope) Please picture a website were everyone behaved like TK has in this situation - not the conservative bias, but the disrespect.  Is this the type of site that you (the admins) want to present?  I am concerned that the admins are turning a blind eye to the sysops and allowing them free reign - they can do no wrong.  This in turn makes it a very hostile and uncomfortable place for anyone who is not a sysop.  --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 20:17, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:I feel uncomfortable here all the time, pretty much the same as at Wikipedia. The only difference is that it's much worse there.
 
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:I disagree with the policy here which permits random newbies to start editing right away. I really hate all the backbiting, backstabbing, character assassination; carping, caviling, sneaky undermining, etc.!
 
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:If it were up to me, I'd block much more aggressively than I have been.
 
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:Maybe I'll just start doing that . . . --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 20:31, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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I think you ought to, Ed. I don't want you to feel uncomfortable here, as you are one of our best editors. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 20:34, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:*Yes Mtur!  ''Not at all like your Sterling good behavior.''  We are appointed to keep the place on-policy, and on-track as friendly to the Conservative and Christian POV, as well as guard against Vandals.  Either overt, ''or covert''. Get used to it. You, and others constantly disrespect people whose POV you disagree with. You are just sly and subtle doing it.  You don't want to accept this is never going to be run like Wikipedia. Perhaps your energies could be used constructively, rather than just carping about what you don't like, and parroting the party line of those who you agree with? I am indeed sorry if you cannot accept some measure of levity, used to defuse a possibly explosive situation. It must get lonely in the Ivory Tower (that was more humor). Ed Poor, you should chat up the Webmaster, ask him about the situation in IRC with some of these people, it will be instructional, I am sure. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 20:36, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:: TK, could you please point to any edits where I have been disrespectful to anyone? I have been 'online' for nearly two decades now (my first experiences were with a 300 baud modem and acoustic coupler to an 8 port BBS chat line) and I am well aware that when there are no body language or voice inflection cues, it is very easy for someone to misinterpret the emotion of the person on the other end of the text connection.  Smilies or a j/k can help give a hint about what the person is writing.  However, just with real life, if everything is said with such a wink, people begin to not take anything that person says seriously.  I remain curious as to how any of these edits [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Theory_of_evolution&diff=prev&oldid=95473] [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Sysop_and_Admin_Abuse&diff=84553&oldid=84515] [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Sysop_and_Admin_Abuse&diff=86432&oldid=86373] were designed to be a measure of levity that would reduce the heightened emotions?  Or where they written with the intent to enrage emotions?  I cannot tell, and it remains up to the individual to determine if they are to see the best in someone or the worst in someone.  I do not believe I am capable of writing anything that would have any emotional encumbrance that you would regard as not being insulting (I am not not trying to be insulting in this passage, just trying to state my perceptions) and thus attempt to remove any emotion from what is written.  I may have a point of view and an opinion, but getting red in the face and pounding away at the keyboard is something I learned not to do on Usenet a decade and a half ago.
 
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:: I am curious as to how you see this being run, if not like Wikipedia.  What are the social norms? What are the rules? There are certainly more rules than have been set down in [[rules]].  When I am comfortable in understanding these rules and I have made the judgment as to if this is a place that I ''want'' to contribute to, then I shall.  Until then, I find the community that is in the process of forming these rules to be incredibly interesting.  Furthermore, I feel that it is more useful to help the community codify those rules as a place where any user can understand what is going to happen if he or she does something than it would be to go forth and write documents.  As it is, there is still a bit of hostility to many of the writers of new material here.  If you search [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?offset=&limit=50&target=Mtur&title=Special%3AContributions&namespace=0 my contributions], you will see that I have contributed some to new material - there are a few articles that I've commented with as "rewrite." --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 22:38, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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*So, your time online mirrors my own, Mtur.  I assume we are more or less contemporaries.  The joke about Martha Stewart was indeed designed to defuse, however I can see someone who is defensive or indignant in their opinion thinking the comment was aimed at them, and that I certainly didn't want to happen. Maybe you don't watch much TV or know of her.  However, you being online as long as you have, certainly know of this old dodge of blind-siding people as you did above, to support the views of those you agree with by making a public post, instead of privately contacting me and asking what I meant first.  I have seen much of your work that is to be admired, your manipulative tactics, posted above, are not a part of that admiration. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 22:46, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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: As I have stated [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia_talk%3ATeamwork&diff=90300&oldid=90283 elsewhere], I prefer all communication to be public (perhaps I should put that on my user page too). As such, it remains difficult for me or anyone else to attribute something other than what I have said to me.  It also constantly reminds me that I am in a public place and to be on my behavior - there will always be someone looking to trap me in words if I misspeak.  I ask of you, have I shown you less respect or treated you with less dignity than you have shown me in the past?  Alternatively, if I was to make the same comments you have made in the past, would I be banned?  --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 23:01, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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*I don't ban people except for vandalism and the like.  I have blocked users, shortly, when I know they are creating havoc, or doing things to marginalize Conservapedia.  I certainly have posted several times, quite publicly, in opposition to some Sysop's actions, etc.  This you well know.  Spirited discourse is how I was raised.  I was schooled by Jesuits. So, no, you wouldn't be banned for talk, of course not.  I know of only one Sysop who has banned for talking.  As I said, I publicly disagreed.  But your argument about keeping everything publc puzzles me, from a logic point of view.  Anyone can make up anything, and say it came from me or you, if they have a mind to.  So to use that as an excuse to actually lessen dialog, seems odd to me.  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 23:06, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::The above statement by TK is quite misleading ... While it was quickly reversed when the error was pointed out, TK blocked me without even checking to see if I was the offending user.  I think sysops should have the basic skills and knowledge to do a little fact/history checking before running to the block button.  I'm sure I'm not the first one TK has blocked by accident, then tried to [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Hojimachong&diff=137248&oldid=137232 cover it up] instead of adding an apology comment. [[User:Jrssr5|Jrssr5]] 08:51, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Jrssr, you have now earned another, not mistaken,  block.  ''Your statement above is totally false'', showing an edit of mine, where I decided to be more temperate, and not bring up the fact you could have been blocked by Hoji for name-calling, and that any Sysop still could, and implying it had something to do with your mistaken blockage of how long? You are disingenuous, and that will not be tolerated. Blocks do no "damage" whatsoever.  You are building red herring non-issues to be inflammatory. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 16:51, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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== Blocking of NousEpirrhytos ==
 
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I would like a comment on this situation, Nous was apparently banned for "attacks on the Bible" by Karajou, which apparently relates to [http://www.conservapedia.com/Talk:Bible#Name this conversation] in which Nous expresses scholarly disagreement with the concept of Biblical literalism.
 
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Even more disturbingly, users questioning Karajou's actions on his talk page have been informed by User:TK that regular users have no business questioning administrative actions. When asked if ''"Andy's promised freedom of speech excludes questioning or criticizing the Bible"'', user:TK responded ''"Yes indeed, that is exactly what I meant"''. [[User:Nematocyte|Nematocyte]] 10:26, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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*When quoting someone, Nematocyte, could you please not edit their quotes?  Some might think you did it deliberately, to stir the pot, and we wouldn't want that, eh? And if you are going to complain about more than one Sysop, please make more than one header, one for each complaint.  Thank you. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 10:31, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::Do you disagree with the content of my condenced quote? Do you not intend to imply those things? In any case, I am not making a complaint against you, as you have not performed an administrative action in this case, only commented. [[User:Nematocyte|Nematocyte]] 10:37, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::*Ahhh....just another snipe.  I see.  Very good. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 10:38, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::Do you disagree with my summation? Do you disagree that administrative comments on the case are relevant? [[User:Nematocyte|Nematocyte]] 10:39, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::::For the love of mud, TK, answer the user's questions rather than bickering.  Nematocyte is being '''incredibly''' reasonable here. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 11:32, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::Agreed, I would rather see answers than this pointless "sniping." [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 11:34, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::::Well, [[User_talk:Karajou#Blocking|this is what we got so far]]. Answers would indeed be nice. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 11:58, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::::: Some of the Sysops seem fairly trigger-happy right now.  Petrus and NousEpirrhytos were completely undeserving of banning.  This along with the un/blocking of AmesG and PalMD give me pause for thought as to what is happening on this site at the moment.  [[User:Airdish|Airdish]] 12:41, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::::::Well, if you read some of TK's latest comments, that's exactly what it's supposed to do. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 12:43, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::::::According to some of TK's recent comments, one could conclude that this page should be speedily deleted - who are we to question or even criticize sysop decisions? --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 12:45, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::I don't see what banning Petrus and NousEpirrhytos was meant to accomplish. It seems to me these bans were pointed at silencing their ''opinion'', rather than promoting '''good faith'''. Is this what I am supposed to take from this? And in the case of PalMD, running off someone with knowledge of the field because he disagrees with your ''opinion'', seems like a fairly poor way to run a site. What are we supposed to think of a site that does this? I know we all hate Wikipedia, but is it a liberal value to allow dissent? [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 12:48, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:While we're quoting, here is Karajou's reaction. It can be found on [[User talk:Karajou#Blocking|his User Talk page]] and on [[Talk:Bible]]:
 
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{{QuoteBox|In Genesis 3:1, the serpent questions what God said concerning the tree of life. "Com'on, Eve...did God really say you can't eat from that tree?" One can transliterate this verse any way they want, but the meaning remains the same: Satan did not attack God personally, but he attacked His word, questioning what He said, and trying to make Eve question it too, which she ultimately did.<br/><br/>The above individuals who have come here to Conservapedia specifically to edit the [[Bible]] article have attempted the same thing. Rather than prove God doesn't exist, they went after His word, repeatedly questioning it, questioning the evidence supporting it, belittling any answer which came their way...and at one point I was accused of the bias. This is going to stop. Either accept the Bible as it is, or leave. I only banned one individual when it started getting sour.  This is Conservapedia...it is not "Liberalpedia".}}
 
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:Just copy-pasting it here since it's quite relevant in my eyes. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 12:49, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:Note: The other person addressed in this is [[User:Petrus]], who also participated in the [[Talk:Bible]] discussion (and who got [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Petrus perma-banned] by TK recently for a similar-sounding reason). --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 12:51, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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Is there somewhere else we can post this where it will get a response from somebody, or am I just being impatient? [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 12:59, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:Sorry, this is pretty much the final destination of all sysop complaints. The previous station had been Andy's talk page (but the big box at the top now says to duke it out here and not there), and the only other option would be the Student Panel. And don't hold your breath. I don't honestly expect something to happen (though I still hope so) - look at the other complaints here (and on Conservative's extra-page). --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 13:08, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::Faith is important to most Americans. Any attempt to undermine faith will be frowned upon here, particularly if directed '''towards''' any particular user. I have tolerated much sarcasm, misdirection, fooling around, and so forth without really being forceful - and been told repeatedly by senior staff that my lenience is not acceptable. I would like to make it possible for liberals or dissenters to participate, because I hate to see anyone marginalized. Believe me, I know how it feels.
 
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::But how many of you whom I have defended have ever expressed a single word of gratitude for all the hospitality you have received here? Go read the story of Jesus and the 10 lepers before you say another word about "abuse". --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 13:45, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::Two users were banned infinitely for the Bible talk (Did you read it?). THREE users were banned for questioning Karajou's behavior. I was among them, and ironically enough, I got banned right after my cry for help to you. <s>Thanks for your great support here, Ed. And thanks for letting us "liberals" and "dissenters" participate.</s> Oh wait. My bad, no sarcasm on Conservapedia. So yeah. Three people get banned for trying to defend two people who got banned (and are still perma-banned). It's a good thing that I don't really care how often I get banned - otherwise I'd really look the other way the next time I see abuse. And yes, I'm slightly bitter. Please don't ban me for it, I'll possibly get better if I can go a few hours or even days without getting banned. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 15:13, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::Oh we are aware of just how <s>hostile</s> hospitable we have received here. Maybe its being forgotten in all of this but the editors of this site are giving something extremely valuable with our contributions. Without the editors there is NOTHING here, this place needs us far more than we need it. What do we really gain by contributing here? A place to voice our ideas? Not really, wikipedia would be the place to go for that. No, most of us originally came here as contributors. This love it or leave it attitude isn't going to fly. If all of us leave conservapedia we are not harmed in anyway, but if all of us leave conservapedia it is fatal. So who needs who? Who should be thanking who? [[User:Etaroced|Etaroced]] 15:56, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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Let us not forget in all of this that a user was banned for idealogical reasons by self-conscious sysop. NousEpirrhytos should be unbanned now, or we need to toss out the conservapedia commandments and just leave it as "All editors are equal but some are more equal than others" and bask in the warming glow of censorship, authoritarianism, capriciousness, and hypocrisy. [[User:Etaroced|Etaroced]] 16:01, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:I'll also add Petrus' ban for review. It appears that he was also banned for this, although by another sysop (TK). --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 16:09, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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==I will just assume bad faith==
 
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on the above issue. since there is no effort to respond, from Andy, Ed or TK. good to know. [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 13:11, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:'''Myk just got banned for one month for questioning Karajou (see his talk page and Bible talk).'''
 
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:Writing quick, I might be next. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 13:14, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::Well, me too, probably. I just posted on Andy's page. Apparently we can't ask questions either. [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 13:16, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::Kinda sad that you can effectively be blocked for asking "Why?" after a sysop did something... --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 13:17, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::::Wow.  Just...wow. [[User:Murray|Murray]] 13:22, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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(reading up) No effort to respond? Do you have any idea how many pages are on my watchlist? Try leaving a note on my [[user talk page]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 13:32, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:Ed, I don't think Flippin really meant you, at least I wouldn't include you on the list, you've responded more than any other on that list<s> (by responding, I mean actually responding and not just whining like a little kid)</s>. <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 16:24, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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==This will probably earn me a ban==
 
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but why was Sid banned by Karajou? Could someone just explain how his actions harmed conservapedia? [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 13:27, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:Dissent is against conservative values. [[User:Etaroced|Etaroced]] 13:30, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::Dissent's not so bad; stupidity might be frowned upon.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 17:20, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::...please tell me that you didn't just call me stupid and that I simply misunderstood your words in the context... --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 17:24, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::::I appologize if/when I (may) offended (with all pertinent disclaimers).  I thought the subject had been banned, so trashing him was ok.  I dissent from my previous statement.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 17:27, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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: re. [[User:Flippin|Flippin]]'s comment:  Seconded. [[User:Airdish|Airdish]] 13:36, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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==Ed Poor and Reginold==
 
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'''Please keep posts in chron order!'''
 
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Ed Poor banned [[User:Reginod|Reginold]] because he didn't apologize for <s>that offended Ed Poor</s> putting words in Ed Poor's mouth, twice (as stated on the block log), even though a well stated apology is on [[User talk:Reginod‎|his talk page]]. Perhaps I will follow; I can't tell.  [[User:Sterile|Sterile]] 18:15, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Avoid insults/snipes, stick to the facts, don't become idealogically biased against Conservative and Christian principles and avoid never-ending arguments and reverts, and I don't think you will have a worry. If you don't, you will be counting the days down. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 18:23, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::No, what I said was ''put words in my mouth twice - did not apologize''. That is not the same as "comments that offended me". Your comment here is tantamount to an accusation. Please clarify your remarks. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 18:35, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::He did apologize, though, didn't he? [[User:AKjeldsen|AKjeldsen]] 18:38, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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::::Sorry that I misrepresented your block log comments; I was focused more on the apology that is quite extensive on his talk page.  As for TK's comment below, I see I have been placed on the [[Conservapedia:Abuse]] immediately after posting this message, which is an interesting commentary on [[justice]] on Conservapedia.  (I also hope that you all blank your User pages in deference to the Virginia Tech victims as I have.) [[User:Sterile|Sterile]] 18:57, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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*I would be a mistake to connect dots, Sterile.  I have been down the hall, in meetings, since I posted, so I am not aware of you being "watched". Those kinds of comments, made by a Sysop, you would be posting about, calling them unfair, eh?  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 19:17, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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I'm not going to comment.  The environment here is too hostile, and again I fear I will be interpreted.  Instead, I think this afternoon when I get a chance, I'll write an article for [[justice]] and get off the 90/10 list, and be proactive instead of defensive. [[User:Sterile|Sterile]] 08:33, 17 April 2007 (EDT)
 
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== Ed Poor ==
 
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This is what Ed Poor wrote in a debate page "We should just blast you all into smithereens, you humorless bastards! BOO-WAH-HAH-HAH!!!! --Ed Poor 14:25, 2 May 2007 (EDT)" Doesn't this warrant a ban? Or can I say bastard without getting into trouble? --[[User:FredK|FredK]] 14:53, 2 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::That was [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Conservapedia:Should_some_of_the_Sysops_on_here_Lighten_Up%3F&diff=140624&oldid=140266 here]. [[User:Auld Nick|Auld Nick]] 11:59, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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: If I interpret 'BOO-WAH-HAH-HAH!!!!' correctly, as evil laughter, then it would seem to mitigate. Anyway, [[User:RSchlafly]] swore [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk%3ASigmund_Freud&diff=133574&oldid=133325 here] to no repercussions, so it would seem that it is condoned. --<font color="#222222" face="Times New Roman">Wik</font><font color="#444444" face="Times New Roman">i</font><font color="#666666" face="Times New Roman">nterpreter</font>'''<sup>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Wikinterpreter talk?]</sup>
 
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*I fail to see swearing at the link provided, Wikinterpreter. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 23:23, 2 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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Uh, here, TK:
 
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'But Freud's work was crap,'
 
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--<font color="#222222" face="Times New Roman">Wik</font><font color="#444444" face="Times New Roman">i</font><font color="#666666" face="Times New Roman">nterpreter</font>'''<sup>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Wikinterpreter talk?]</sup>
 
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:I intend to follow this up by referring to a female wolf as a bitch. Next month, I'll refer to a male chicken as a cock. Lighten up, eh? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 19:55, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*I someone here thinks using the word "crap" is swearing, I submit you are far too sheltered and unworldly to venture out onto the Internet.  --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 08:31, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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: So what's the point in Commandment Number 3, then? Where do we draw the line? Because if not, then it's a load of ... oh, well I won't stoop to that level. Is this a confirmation that the use of the words 'crap' and 'bastard' is sanctioned by two admins? --<font color="#222222" face="Times New Roman">Wik</font><font color="#444444" face="Times New Roman">i</font><font color="#666666" face="Times New Roman">nterpreter</font>'''<sup>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Wikinterpreter talk?]</sup>
 
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== Aschlafly ==
 
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Aschlafly was acting like a bully.  He's apparently the owner of this site, so he'll get away with it, but he [http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Aschlafly#Notice_of_likely_blocking pushed around] me & [[user_talk:1048247| 1048247]] pretty ruthlessly & without cause.  When confronted about it, he told me to leave his talk page, and discuss any problems on the article talk page itself, which [http://www.conservapedia.com/Talk:Alexander_Hamilton he has not done], instead [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Alexander_Hamilton&action=history reverting] without explanation on the talk page.  I think this is inappropriate behavior for an admin.  As I said, nothing will get done about it, but I think he needs to know that it creates a bad work environment.  Of course, I can't tell him that on his page without getting blocked, so this will have to do.  I'm new to the site, but already I can tell that.  Doesn't that tell ''you'' something?-[[User:BillBuck|BillBuck]] 13:15, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:I've been here for a couple of months and have nothing but good things to say about Andy. I have created new articles, edited some, suggested news articles for the Breaking News section, etc. In other words, I've made several positive contributions to this site without engaging in the endless debates and discussions on contentious talk pages. I've also been watching Andy's talk page, and I've seen the vandalism on this site as well as the constant badgering that he has to deal with on a daily basis. BillBuck, I have seen your side of this issue, and I disagree. I believe Andy is very tolerant of other editors and I fully support his actions. [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] <sup>[[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]]</sup> 13:50, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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That sounds like he's tolerant of people he agrees with.  The test of tolerance & kindness isn't how you behave towards your friends.  It's how you treat others with whom you differ in significant ways.  One of the many remarkable things about Christ was that he treated all men equally; if He had only shown favor & friendship towards His disciples, it wouldn't have been that impressive.  Although I'm glad it's been a positive experience for you.-[[User:BillBuck|BillBuck]] 13:58, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::I got blocked for writing this, but I stick by it.  I don't think complaining about admin abuse is the same as "starting a fight."  The fight was started when Aschlafly insulted me.-[[User:BillBuck|BillBuck]] 20:37, 6 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*You were not blocked by Andy Schlafly, but by Karajou.  You personal page is nothing but a biased attack, not some intellectual criticism of Schlafly.  Your intentions and outlook are clear.  You were responsible for being blocked, no one else, and for no other reason than your picking a fight. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 20:55, 6 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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Look, when you start blocking people for disagreeing with you, how are you better than the Taliban?-[[User:BillBuck|BillBuck]] 20:57, 6 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Obviously online wiki's are not the place for you ''if'' you cannot discern the difference between disagreements, intellectual debate, and going out of your way to provoke.  I have no dog in this hunt, other than reading your comments, and Karajou's and the others. I have never shied away from criticizing Andy, or anyone, when I thought it due, but you can (and will) do so without keeping at it to provoke acrimony. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 21:06, 6 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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You've not shown your ability to perform the same kind of distinction you ask of me.-[[User:BillBuck|BillBuck]] 21:24, 6 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Well, fortunately for me, then,  you are not here to judge the actions of Sysops, and there isn't any rule, guideline or Commandment saying you should or could.  Stop jerking around, and either be here to help, or I will remove you. You are ignorant of the facts in the extreme, and judgemental to the point of it being laughable.  --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 21:40, 6 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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==Separate Complaints About the Poster==
 
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:"Kind of a bully", huh?  Where did I here that before....hmmm...was it Chip Berlet, [http://www.religiousrightwatch.com/2005/07/the_things_peop.html] author of [http://www.organizenow.net/cco/right/propanalysis.txt Introduction to Propaganda Analysis] who "recommends the terms 'bullying' and its variants".  Wanna see a few thousand diffs to make the point?  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 14:40, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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What?!  I don't see the relevance.-[[User:BillBuck|BillBuck]] 14:45, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:We've heard it all.  And the cookie cutter textbook buzzwords and phrases just don't get attention anymore.  It's kinda like Pavlov's dogs or the boy who cried wolf, after hearing the same stuff over and over again, eventually you just don't hear it.
 
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:Let me give a real simple example.  This page is for sysop abuse.  Your opening sentence is uncivil and a personal attack.  Why should I read '''''any''''' further?  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 15:01, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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I've changed the tone so that the personal attack is gone.  I'm sure you'll be interested in reading the rest, now.  I think it's sad, though, that you'd ignore criticisms after a while: just like the boy that cried wolf, you might miss it when it's the real thing.  Also, since this is the first I've heard of it, it's news to me.-[[User:BillBuck|BillBuck]] 15:04, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*So, when "caught" you now show your revisionist stripes, change the tone, and want to continue your ad hominem attack?  --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 17:06, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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Moving on...
 
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Is anyone going to address the substantive complaint?  So far only RobS and TK have, and just to suggest a nicer approach (which I took to heart) or mock me (which I won't).  Won't someone address the substance?-[[User:BillBuck|BillBuck]] 18:53, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*By "substance" you wish to have addressed your totally subjective, personal opinion, that Andrew Schlafly is a "bully"?  That is my understanding. Is it correct? --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 19:23, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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Moving on...
 
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I mean that he doesn't care what other people have to say.  And blocks them when they disagree with him.  I mean, you've been here longer than me, so prove me wrong, but first impressions are really hard to shake, you know?-[[User:BillBuck|BillBuck]] 19:26, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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: I appreciate the support here.  It's obvious to me that Bill is yet another liberal who may delight in pretending otherwise.  Bill, I'm going to check your edits now but if you're violating the 90/10 [[rule]] and don't correct that violation soon, then you will be blocked as others have been.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:34, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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: Follow-up: after a quick look at Bill's edits, I estimate only about 10% could possibly be substantive.  Next I'll check those substantive edits (a grand total of 5) and see what they were.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:36, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:*You forgot to add "Moving on..." Andy.  That apparently is another Liberal device to avoid directly answering. :p --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 20:22, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*He's blocked for three days for picking a fight.  He could have handled it a lot better than he did.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 20:35, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:*Aren't there still boards out there that welcome the constant fighting and never-sending debate? --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 20:48, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:**Look at his edits to William Rehnquist and Anton Scalia. Not bad. [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=William_Rehnquist&diff=prev&oldid=142314] [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Antonin_Scalia&diff=prev&oldid=142318]  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 20:51, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::I'm sure those fighting boards are at Wikipedia.  When it comes to people here wanting to start a fight, it has to be put down immediately and not escalate.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 20:56, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Unlike you or I, Karajou, Andy is used to teaching young students, and that is why he appears (to me at least) to be if anything, overly tolerant of "spirited" discussion of a kind that always seems to turn into personal insults against him, or worse, insults to his family.  I guess some here would faint dead-away to learn some of us wouldn't tolerate more than one paragraph of personal insults, compared to the pages Andy tolerates. I do always get a chuckle when sections like this, once the perpetrator is called out, and no longer is free-posting complaint after complaint, they flee.  --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 21:06, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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Okey, I'm bit lost now... This is Administrative Abuse page isn't it? And when people post here it's usually because they had an fight with an sysop. If posting here only gets the complainer to be banned for causing more fighting then what is the use to have these pages? I don't know if the former complainer for example had specially good reason to complain, but he did it quite civil and would have hoped that using these pages for what they are meant to wouldn't have just caused more trouble for him. [[User:Timppeli|Timppeli]] 21:08, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:TK's got a good point; many of these are young people are anxious to learn the rhetorical arts, and we can show them how to be effective.  It doesn't matter what your ideology is.  A look at his contribs is impressive.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 21:15, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*I am lost too.  Is it at all possible you are so specious that you cannot tell the difference between someone complaining, and offering totally subjective, context-specific "evidence" to advance what is purely personal opinion, and something that is substantive, and possibly something that is truly questionable?  This whole topic is mostly filled with personal opinions, highly subjective complaints, mainly of personal style, rather than specific, verifiable accusations of "wrong doing".  It should more accurately be titled "X did something I am mad at, and I want attention!".  Perhaps I need to make "rules" for this page, more narrowly defining what is and is not something that rises to the the proper definition of "abuse", since so very few seem to know what the word actually means. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 21:18, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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I think thats an good idea TK, as i must admit that i thought i did, but seams some people have very different opinion on this subject. Mayby some clarification would be good for everyones sake. [[User:Timppeli|Timppeli]] 21:23, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::Ok, I don't like fights; that point is clear.  I also don't like people escalating those fights, and I have put a stop to the fights, usually by blocking.  I honestly don't like doing that.  But a fight must be put down before it gets out of hand; it cannot continue from the main page and escalate here, and that comes from having seen it and stopping it in police work.  The individual causing such a fight needs to follow the rules for this site as well as the sysops (myself too) need to follow some good rules on stopping the fight.  If TK can make those specific rules, I will follow them.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 21:25, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Karajou, I certainly hope you were not thinking anything I posted was directed at you, because it most certainly was not. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 08:29, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::No, I didn't take it that way.  My thinking was that what you said was meant to improve our own performance overall.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 09:20, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::Karajou, I hope you realise that a fight involves at least two people and you have blocked just one. This page is for people who wish to make a complaint about something, and wish it to be looked at fairly by a third party(ies). Blocking one side of an argument doesn't immediately solve the argument (if anything it is much much worse leading to alienation and frustration). Regardless of who the complaint was directed at the argument should have been looked at objectively not just torn apart by any member of the "I love Schlafly" squad. Looking at what happened, it seems that the complaint was totally disregarded with preference to a set of ad hominem attacks on both the argument and the complainant. Surely you must see this defeats the whole point of this page? [[User:MatteeNeutra|MatteeNeutra]] 14:25, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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==Swearing==
 
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There are levels of "swear" words. I got "bastard" from a divinity student who later became academic dean of a small theological seminary. He translated the Latin ''Nihil illegitimati carborundum'' as "don't let the bastards wear you down."
 
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Clearly, much of the "abuse" complaints here are actually protests against policy itself - not reports of policy violations by staff. It's part of the general adolescent angst endemic amoung Liberals. All authority is evil and suspect and deserves to be torn down.
 
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The hypocrisy of this is the utter disregard of the evils of slavery in the Sudan, the double standard of enjoying electricity and fresh food in the West (while Africans should go without), and the neglect (amounting to censorship) of the totalitarian abuses of socialists.
 
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What the heck is that all about? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 08:48, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:They hate the word "conservative" in Conservapedia; they think that this is a free and open wiki; they think that no one is in charge; they think that this should be a free-for-all in which whatever it is they believe in should be shoved down our throats, and if we prevent that, why they cite free speech violations.  These people have to be told otherwise, one way or the other.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 09:25, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::Hi Ed, might be better on a debate page, but I'd love to address some of these topics. First of all, I do not feel a special existential angst similar to that in my youth, but I have seen many abuses of authority over the years. This has led me to believe that not all conservatives are bad people, but that people in power can, if unchecked, use it poorly (no pun intended ;-) ). If you look at the case of Fargo, ND, they raised their speeding fines by about 100% a few years back. That's all well and good in theory, except it violates the state law, and now they are going to have to pay the overage (based on five years of tickets) back. The authority issue comes in because they did so knowingly---they would not let defendants see a judge, they increased the overall number of tickets by almost half again and  they have now spent (no kidding) thousands of state taxpayer dollars trying to keep my sister-in-law from getting back $86 in wrongful fines. Have you ever heard of a traffic ticket that has yielded over 300 man-hours of legal work by a state?
 
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::Abuses like these are why I became a liberal. I have seen many such instances and realized that too much authority in one person's hands makes for a dangerous situation. I regard the evils of slavery as a real threat to our security--more so than Iraq.
 
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::Not all authority need to be torn down, but it ''deserves'' questioning and a watchful eye. I don't hate George Bush anymore than I hate Mother Teresa (I didn't hate her either), but asking tough questions is my duty as a citizen.
 
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::Finally, I think you have a point when you say many of the questions here are about policy. I won't spend all day on bias, but it is very difficult to measure bias. Writing it into an article--possible, but how do please the more conservative among you as well as the more moderate? Once that dis-equity is designed, can it really be self-sustaining? I am here to see if any of you can actually do what you intend, or if eventually, you will create something nearly identical to wikipedia without blocking, protecting and guarding everything. Good comment Ed, but I hope you appreciate my position. [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 09:31, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*I hate to be the one to break it to you, Flippin, but the actions you cite in Fargo, are certainly not those of Conservatives. And if they self-designated themselves as such, they are wrong. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 10:01, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:Ed, I don’t think this is a particularly liberal way of thinking (look at how conservatives treat liberal authority figures on this site)—I think it is human to want to see those you disagree with have less power (how many Conservatives do you think would support warrantless wiretapping in 2009 if a Democrat is in the White House (especially if Hilary is there), and how many Liberals who opposed it when Bush did it will change their minds?).  So, yes I have no doubt that there are some liberals on this site who would like to see the current people in charge have less power.  I freely admit I’d like the religious conservatives to have less power here and those with more libertarian leanings to have more (I want people who agree with me to have more power).
 
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:But I also think that part of the problem is that the rules are unclear.  I might have thought that the words in question above amounted to foul language and some sysops may have enforced the rule that way (say I used those words to describe my opinions of YEC how long do you honestly think t would take before that earned me a ban?).  There are clear double standards on what is acceptable here, at least in terms of how some of the rules are enforced, and that bothers people especially those who get the bad side of that deal.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 10:05, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:*I agree, Reginod.  Religion and political issues bring out the worst in people. Those of us who have had a "professional" involvement positively cringe at the thought of getting involved with "the public" about political things, as most are at best disingenuous and at worst totally unscrupulous, in discussing all things political.  Not to mention most citizens, either here or the UK, are woefully ignorant of the whole process.  --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 10:18, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::Reginod, the example you cite is an extrememly poor one; warrantless wiretaps have been '''legel''' since 1938.  Democratic President Franklin Roosevelt authorized by Executive Order wiretaps on American citizens, and he approved '''foreign''' Intelligence doing it.  Why isn't this commonly known?  Why liberal media bias, of course.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 12:47, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::I disagree.  FISA requires a warrant for wiretaps and outlines exactly under what circumstances a warentless wiretap is allowed.  FISA post-dates 1938 and so any conflict between it and a 1938 executive order would come out in favor of FISA, more importantly FISA is a law, not an executive order, and laws have more legal weight than executive orders.  But, I think that strays from the main point I was trying to make.
 
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:::I gather that you support President Bush’s use of warrantless wiretaps in the War on Terror?  If Hillary Clinton (or Obama, or Edwards, or any other Democrat) were elected President in 2008, would you support her use of the same program?  Would you want a President Hillary Clinton to have the power to wiretap any phone that she or her administration deemed potentially relevant in the War on Terror?  My suspicion is that the answer there is no (if it isn’t I think you will find yourself in the minority among Conservatives).  My point was that Conservatives tend to support Bush’s use of the program because his views and theirs line up—they like a person with their views in power, and trust him to use it well—whereas Liberals tend not to support Bush’s use of the program because they have different views from him—they don’t like a person with views that different from their own, using that much power.  Likewise most Conservatives would not support a Liberal President using the exact same program, whereas most Liberals would find themselves supporting a Liberal President using that same program.  Humans, Liberal or Conservative don’t like people who have views different from their own welding power (that was my point).
 
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:::I personally don’t want anyone using such a program, since I tend to be distrustful of the police power of the state in general (but that’s not especially relevant, I just figured it was only fair to be frank about where I was coming from).--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 13:08, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::::FISA only applies to US counterintelligence operations, it does not cover cooperative sharing agreements between NATO allies.  When NSA suspects an American, through a cooperative sharing agreement, NSA can request British MI-5 to perform the wiretap, hence it is not a US federal government agency performing the tap.  Once MI-5 retrtieves the material, through an international intelligence sharing agreement they share the intelligence product with NSA.  A similiar program exists in Great Britain with a reciprocal arangement.  You will recall, it was very recently reported CIA tapped Prince Di's; stop and think momentarily, what use would CIA have in tapping Princess Di?  None, whatsoever, except British intelligence couldnt do it themselves, and it certainly would be a scandal if revealed.  It was a reciprocal cooperative sharing agreement.  Forget FISA.  It does not apply in the issue of so-called "domestic spying".  FDR made legal prior to WWII, and has been legel ever since.  All the other stories about FISA are simply disinformation to hide the true basis of the how the program operates, and how its done legally.
 
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::::As an aside, an item of Impeachment against Richard Nixon claimed he authorized domestic wiretaps on US citizens; if this is an impeachable offense for failing to protect American citizens rights, imagine what FDR did, in peacetime, authorize domestic wiretaps '''''against US citizens by a foreign government'''''.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 13:44, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::::I don’t know the full details of the program getting all the media coverage—I was under the impression that it didn’t involve the kind of information sharing that you describe (I am under the impression that you are quite right, if it was the sort of behavior you describe it would be legal).  But, as I said, I think that is a side point.
 
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:::::For the record, let me be clear I don’t want any President (or any President’s administration) having the power to tap phonelines without some form of oversight from the judicial branch (I’d prefer something stronger than FISA, personally) -- Bush, Nixon, FRD, Clinton, you name them I don’t want any of them having that kind of power (the police power of the executive is incredibly prone to abuse and I want it at all times to be checked by at least one, and preferably two, of the other branches of our government).
 
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:::::Let me get back to my point—would you want, should she become President, Hilary Clinton’s administration to have the power to wiretap phones of Americans without any judicial oversight?  I assume the answer is no, because I assume most people don’t want those ideologically different from themselves to have that much power.--[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 13:59, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::::::The point is, it has been legal for nearly 70 years now, and it would probably take revamping the NATO Charter to make it illegal.  FISA had weaknesses, (1) it assumed all countertintelligence was directed at foreign governments; (2) while it made provisions for Americans acting as agents of foreign governements, it made no provision for counterintelligence agaisnt non-national entities like drug cartels or terrorist organizations; (3) its provisions for industrial espionage committed by non-governmental multinational corporations were ambiguous.  In short, the whole Patriot Act & FISA Acts have nothing to do with the established procedures for domestic spying, and have been distorted by members of Congress and media allies for partisan politcal purposes.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 14:30, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::::::::I will happily continue this discussion elsewhere, but not here (see below).  --[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 14:38, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::::::::Go to the discusssin page here; perhaps we can begin [[FISA]] out of this discussion.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 14:44, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::First of all it isn't president bush deciding who to wiretap, and who not to wiretap.  Secondly, I would support the same program with a democrat as president. --[[User:CPAdmin1|CPAdmin1]] 13:14, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::::Let me clarify I was using “President Bush” as a “controller-for-controlled” metonymy[http://www.sil.org/lingualinks/lexicon/MetonymiesInEnglish/WhatIsAControllerForControlled.htm] —if that was a source of confusion I apologize.
 
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:::::I think you are in the minority (conservative or liberal) in supporting such a program under both Republican and Democratic presidencies, but I applaud your logical consistency. --[[User:Reginod|Reginod]] 13:28, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::"the actions you cite in Fargo, are certainly not those of Conservatives" How you could no thank boggles the mind. Maybe self-deceit is not just a "liberal trait." Sometimes I think you just make broad pronouncements to sound important. [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 11:09, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*That is just the point, Flippin. We Conservatives find that all people are important, unlike Liberals. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 12:27, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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Wouldn't it be nice if we started from the assumption that all people are good-natured and mean well, rather than starting from our preconceived notions of what we expect people to act like.  After all, there is a political spectrum, there are people who don't consider themselves as "strongly liberal" or "strongly conservative," and who remove themselves from the political system because of the bickering between the extremes on both sides.  Furthermore there are anti-abortion anti-gun law folks out there.  Not every person neatly fits into one category or another.  That we start out with an assumption that person will act or believe because of a label is truly sad (shame on all of us), and worse, if we start with a label on ourselves and create our belief system with no internal introspection, that is far more sad.  God or nature wouldn't haven't given us brains if we weren't to use them. [[User:Sterile|Sterile]] 15:28, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:I agree with all of this; when someone crosses the line into activism coordinated and aligned with the extremes we may be able to make a judgement then.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 15:34, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Agreed. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 21:01, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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----
 
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'''Getting off topic'''
 
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We're going to have to end this debate here, and choose another page (a talk page at that) for this discussion.  This page is supposed to be for abuse of admin/sysop authority, and should remain as such...so, if everyone pleases...(it was a good debate, by the way!)  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 14:06, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:This was a good debate, and one of the reasons that we '''have''' discussion pages. Debate helps sharpen our awareness of the distinction between positions, and even sometimes what the similarities are. That will help us write better articles on the topics touched on, in the debates. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 19:23, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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== False accusation by TK ==
 
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At 9:04 am sysop TK left a rather bizarre maasage on my talk page
 
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:''Tea....
 
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:''Do you enjoy it? I like Oolong best of all! Now explain yourself. --Sysop-TK /MyTalk 09:04, 8 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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Rather puzzled by this, I responded in kind.
 
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::''Yes, tea is nice. I drink it because I find it quite relaxing. I recommend Mate, although it requires the proper equipment to enjoy fully. Thanks for your interest. Nematocyte 04:38, 9 May 2007 (EDT)''
 
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However, shortly afterward I was blocked for "sock puppets", with the following message.
 
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:''Well confession is good for the soul, don't you know? Sorry, but it was the wrong answer, and you and your sock are going on vacation. --Sysop-TK /MyTalk 09:09, 9 May 2007 (EDT)''
 
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Around the same time a user with zero contributes appears to have been blocked for infinity for "being a sock of nematocyte". I've never heard of this user, and I certainly am not using it as a sock. I work from a series of publically accessable machines, which could potentially explain TK's mistake. However, that doesn't excuse that no attempt was made to check the truth of the matter, or the general lack of civility used by TK. [[User:Nematocyte|Nematocyte]] 09:39, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Are you complaining about a lack of civility to you, Nematocyte? Or to some potentially unknown user who you are "protecting" and fighting for? --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 19:19, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::Like I said, I've never heard of the user and have had no contact with them. It makes no personal difference to me what happens to them. But it would seem the correct thing for you to do would be to apologise to the both of us for your mistake. [[User:Nematocyte|Nematocyte]] 04:38, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Well it wasn't a mistake, that is the problem.  Suffice to say you are still here, and your statement, based upon nothing factual whatsoever, that no attempt was made to check it out, is false.  It is our perogative and charge to protect this site.  If mistakes are made, so be it.  But it is wrong for anyone to assume we don't check, and aren't doing the best job we can.  --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 04:47, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::My statement is based on my first hand knowledge of what is going on at my side. Namely, that contrary to your claims, I do not have a sock puppet and never have. As far as I'm aware that's 100% factual. May I ask what "evidence" there was to the contrary, and what measures ''were'' made to check it wasn't a mistake, and the reasoning being your rather cryptic questioning on my talk page? [[User:Nematocyte|Nematocyte]] 04:54, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*My post was to let you know, if you did indeed make the puppet, that we knew about it.  That's all. When a user fails to repond in a timely manner, and doesnt even bother to email, that doesn't tend to make us think they are on the up and up.  --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 05:05, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::I had gone home for the day, nothing more sinister than that. If it was a matter of timing, what was the "wrong answer" comment about? [[User:Nematocyte|Nematocyte]] 05:09, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*No denial and a talking about tea. Nothing more sinister than that. ;-)  --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 05:12, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::It was hard for me to deny something that I knew nothing about. Remember, all you left on my talk page was a bizarre question about tea, not an accussation. [[User:Nematocyte|Nematocyte]] 05:16, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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Also, my question about what "evidence" there was, and what measures were taken to ensure the veracity of the accussation remain unanswered. [[User:Nematocyte|Nematocyte]] 06:08, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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TK, you owe Conservapedia users a full explanation of what happened. Nematocyte's accusations are heavy. [[User:Leopeo|Leopeo]] 06:32, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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== Ed Poor sysop needs a refresher in net ettiquette ==
 
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I have been on this site for nearly 3 days.  I have submitted one article and was in the process of submitting a second article when it was deleted by Ed Poor with no notification.  This site's email notification is broken so I can't get an email confirmation sent to me no matter what email address I use so I could not contact him directly.  Now I find that my IP is blocked because Ed Poor is upset that I asked for an explanation under his talk comments.
 
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What kind of site is this?  Well, as a new user I'm not impressed.  I am VERY conservative and a loyal person to the consevative ideology I thought this site was actually a place where openess and conservatism would be respected but I guess I was wrong... [[User: PatrioticAmericanCitizen|PatrioticAmericanCitizen]]
 
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Okay - let me try a different approch - how do you inquire about a sysop that shall remain nameless to ask about an IP block when you can't mention a sysop by name because they think it is a "personal remark"?
 
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Your rule says - "You must be civil. No bullying.
 
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Your user page/discussion pages, are indeed your castle, from which you can agree, disagree and discuss issues as you will. However you cannot use them to bully, ridicule (make fun of) or attack (denigrate) Conservapedia or other users, and their opinions. There is a difference between intellectual discourse, and attacking someone for what they believe. Wikipedia condones bullying and mob rule, we don’t."
 
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You say no bullying but isn't using an IP block bullying in it's own right?  It's an honest question that deserves an honest answer....
 
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{{unsigned|PatrioticAmericanCitizen}}
 
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I have no idea who you are asking that question of, Patriot, but IMO, no, it isn't.  It is standard practice at most all websites. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 23:47, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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I was asking it of Ed Poor without mentioning his name because on two occasions when I tried to obtain an explanation from him about his behaivior, I got an IP block as a result.  I understand the "standard practice" reason for IP blocks in general - but deleting or modifying articles (real articles not liberal vandalism type articles) without any discussion whatsoever with the person who created them on any website is wrong. As a new user to the site, I was extremely upset at being treated in this manner.  Especially after working very hard to write an article that is keeping within what I felt was the spirit of the type of articles that conservapedia.com would want on their site....I really really really really want to help this site develop if I can - I can't stand the leftward slant on wikipedia.  If that particular sysop would have just said something to me before he went and did what he did - this could have been avoided.  That's all I'm saying.  There, I feel better now :) Now back to our regularly scheduled program....
 
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[[User: PatrioticAmericanCitizen|PatrioticAmericanCitizen]]
 
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==I Second This==
 
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For the past couple of days I have spent many hours researching and writing articles about British Comedy of the 50s 60s and 70s. I wrote articles on Carry On Films, and Tony Hancock, one of the all time British Comedy Greats. In doing that, I created articles about Sid James and Kenneth Williams who were in the original Hancock's half hour series along with Hattie Jacques. I spent a long time writing synopses of Hancock episodes, and finding clips. Some of these entries were about 2000 words in length. 
 
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I went on to write bios of some of the other Carry on stars including Barbara Windsor and Charles Hawtrey. Ed Poor saw my entry on Hawtrey, which touched on the fact that he was very camp and a noted homosexual, a fact well known and totally uncontraversial. He saw this and not only deleted that article without any discussion whasoever, but then went on to delte the whole body of work, on the grounds that "we dont want a whole load of articles glorifying the homosexual lifestyle". If he had read any of the articles he would have realised that (a) Only Williams and Hawtrey were homosexuals (Williams always claimed he was celibate AND tortured himself for being gay - hardly glorifying it), and (b) Neither Tony Hancock nor Sid James were homosexual, and the other two were women, and (c) The Tony Hancock article was unchanged from when it had been copyedited by Philip Rayment
 
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Interestingly, Ed Poor also removed an article on Hattie Jacques which I had not written, but merely linked to one of my articles from it.
 
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All of this I believe is Abuse. Abuse of Power, and abuse of contributors who contribute their work in good faith. There is a system for Articles for Deletion OR even articles for speedy deletion which Ed Poor seems to be totally disregarding and thus behaving in a completely high-handed and unreasonable and totally arbitrary manner.
 
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The work that I contributed has now disappeared and I do not have any copy of it. I feel totally aggrieved and if one of my work colleagues had behaved in this manner I would be taking out a grievance procedure against him. I would vote that he be suspended from SySop-ship until he learns some modicum of self-control and reasonableness
 
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--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 06:28, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*All contributions to Conservapedia may be edited, altered, or removed by other contributors. If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then don't submit it here. Next time, keep a backup copy. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 19:45, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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: The more important question, I think, is this: do sysops have any sort of responsibility to use an AFD process?  I don't mean that we need to have Wikipedia-style bureaucracy here, but I can imagine feeling miffed if you removed a bunch of things I wrote in good faith without at least giving me a chance to defend them.  [[User:Brainslug|Brainslug]] 20:14, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*"Feelings" are good.  Healthy even.  Just so long as they don't take over for logic and intellect.  If something isn't appropriate, Administrators have no other obligation than to remove it. Yes, sometimes that is unfair, unfortunately.  --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 23:07, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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I think the whole point that SeanTheSheep was trying to touch on was that the material was completely uncontroversial, was written in good faith, and deleted unilaterally. That's not unfairness, that's Wikipedia-style bureaucracy. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 23:53, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*I think the whole point of this, like WP, we have people who don't even know all the facts, and certainly didn't want to learn them, posting their opinions.  Especially Sysops, talking about another, ignorant, totally, of the background.  Oh well, people think it is their "right" to talk, even if they don't bother to know the facts, so who am I to point out that is wrong?  --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 03:14, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::And the point about this is that the evidence on which a sensible decision could have been made has been removed. I still want to know on what basis Sysops are granted license to summarily remove articles without discussion. Clearly if someone creates a ''Llama Sex'' article as a spoof or vandal entry then that can be summarily removed, but to remove a bona fide article ''forever'' with no discussion just on the say-so of one person seems to me an illegitimate use of Sysop powers.--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 05:09, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*And that is all well and good, Sean, however Andy has granted us that authority, as the Owner of this site.  So, your opinion, which is real to you, and your truth, isn't for the site owner.  ''Therefore, in matters here, that decision has already been made, months before you came here.''.  For the future, I might suggest, instead of posting here, you first try to resolve the matter personally with the Sysop involved, better through a private email or IM, that is how we prefer it done here, no matter what your experiences might be with other wiki's.  If that fails to gain results, and you still wish to pursue the matter, contact another Sysop and discuss.  Finally, failing those methods, post here.  Hope this helps. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 06:36, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::So Sysops have the powers to unilaterally remove articles without discussion, and that by your own words "you first try to resolve the matter personally with the Sysop involved", in other words, do some behind-the-scenes negotiation. The whole process here seems remarkably anti-democratic and un-American in essence. The whole Conservapedia enterprise is beginning to look to me as if it had been imported form some dark recesses of [[George Orwell]]'s imagination.--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 06:49, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Well you are either incredibly naive, or misinformed.  All of the American Congress and politics in this country works like that.  Bills are introduced, negotiated behind closed doors, then brought to a public vote, and up until that vote, accomodations and changes are continually made, all in those "dark recesses" you talk about.  It seems to work, as we are indeed the oldest enduring Democratic Republic in the entire world.  We pride ourselves here at CP at not being like Wikipedia, where possibly good and valuable editors such as yourself, are not called out and subjected to public ridicule by other users, who may or may not have more expertise on the article in question. Is that your idea of American?  Disagreements between users are better played out without that public stage, unless and until a resolution cannot be reached.  Those prefering it otherwise, I suspect of liking public drama and "pot stirring" which on any site is counter-productive.  In any event, I have explained to you how we prefer it to work, so unless and until you contact Ed Poor, and ask for his thinking, no action will be taken on this complaint. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 06:59, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::::::Three points: (1) At least any bill which is introduced gets to be seen and can be discussed by someone, can be discussed in an open forum, and not deleted without trace unilaterally by a group of arbitrarily chosen Sysops. (2) In addiiton, who are you to decide whether or not I would or would not want to be subjected to public ridicule? By submitting my owrk, I open myself to what you call ridicule, however, I call it peer review, and it is the principle on which all Wikis are based, whether you like it or not. That argument is non-sensical and disingenuous (3) When I asked Ed poor for an explanation I was blocked for "arguing".--[[User:SeanTheSheep|SeanTheSheep]] 07:28, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::I'd wish Andy to take a position here. You, TK, have received much criticism for your harsh actions, comments and threats (usually by self-admitted liberals, I agree). In my humble opinion, you are too quick in some of your actions (blocks, comments). In addition I don't like your threats "you have been warned, next time..." or your "Andy has granted this and that authority". I really don't know what powers you have, but I see only you using them. For example, I don't see Ed Poor behaving like you. More to the point, I don't see Andy behaving like you. It is entirely possible that before every move you make you consult with Andy. But as I said, I'd wish Andy to take a position here. [[User:Leopeo|Leopeo]] 07:01, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*What you are actually saying, Leopeo, is that you have seen his expressions before, you don't accept them, and wish it to be stated once again, for drama's sake.  Have you looked at the CP guidelines, at all? [[http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia_Guidelines]] As for Ed, read the complaints above, he seems to stand accused by others, like I am by you.  There is a certain element of user here, who does not like the way the place is run, and wishes it to be more like Wikipedia.  I can assure you Conservapedia never will.  As for Andy, he reads and sees more here than I ever will, and it is my experience he posts when he wants to. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 07:24, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::Yes, I have read the Commandments and the Guidelines (while I don't agree with the early-blocking guideline, but that is my problem). I know that Ed too has been accused (and I don't agree with all his actions). But, in my probably biased eyes, your actions and words stand out. I accept and understand how Conservapedia is run. But I certainly would prefer more humility, self control and acceptance of others from you, TK, personally. I apologize of accusing you personally, because you have never done to me anything of those things I accuse you of.
 
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::Funny your comparison to Wikipedia. I thought threats and arbitrary blocking of users were not one of the ways to be different from WP. I am just asking Andy to take a position, he is not obliged to! :-) And for what I know, you may have an agreement with Andy that you are his 'sword', that is his 'hawk' side. But it would be better if it were clearly stated. [[User:Leopeo|Leopeo]] 07:43, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*LOL.  Andy has wielded his sword often, and as you are around longer, will see that. What some take as "threats" are warnings.  Some would prefer that we just block them, I prefer to make known to a user when I see them headed in the wrong direction for CP. What you see as "arbitrary" might just not be, unless you had full access to facts. Most everyone who is a Sysop has heard from Andy when someone is blocked for reasons he doesn't like.  Likewise, he is a good leader, and spreads around kudos as well.  We have disagreed about actions, privately, and respect each other enough to admit our mistakes (on those rare occasions we make them). Conversely, Ed and I agree about 90% of the time as well.  I readily admit he uses a more erudite manner, most of the time, than I do.  I am blunt and direct, a rather rare commodity in today's world, IMO, and certainly not every one's cup of tea.  However, I am fair.  Not so much when people are evasive. --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 08:10, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::If you are fair, then why do you not answer the questions posed against your integrity in some of the sections above? [[User:RDre|RDre]] 10:04, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:::RDre, you have not edited in three weeks or taken part in this discussion, yet appear here to impugn TK's integrity.  This may be regarded as incivility and trolling.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 13:43, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::::It was a valid question, regardless of his edit history; that was an ad hominem comment. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 17:48, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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== Banned from IRC channel ==
 
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TK banned me from the #conservapedia [[IRC]] channel for no apparent reason, and he has declined to offer any explanation:
 
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:Any particular reason you kicked and banned me from #conservapedia? --Jtl 02:44, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:Yes. --Sysop-TK /MyTalk 02:47, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:And what is that reason? --Jtl 02:49, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:Be patient. All will be explained, and soon. --Sysop-TK /MyTalk 02:54, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:Like all those other mysterious big changes you keep talking about that are coming soon? Why won't you just answer the question and explain your actions? --Jtl 02:58, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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He had two perfectly good opportunities already to give a clue why, and has edited the site since that last question was posed, but he hasn't answered. --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 03:52, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*LOL. And now what?  You posted here?  Give me a break.  --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 04:49, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:: Yes.  "This is where you can report abuse by Sysops."  I have no illusions anything will be done, mind you, but you are abusive and I'm reporting it. --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 12:22, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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== name-calling by TK ==
 
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Now, TK has called me a [[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:TK&diff=163885&oldid=163757 "terrorist"]]. ''much'' lesser insults have resulted in bans for other users. --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 12:31, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:That's true - I remember when a user was banned for life for calling someone a 'baby'.  Last time I checked, babies weren't plotting to destroy the social fabric of American society.  What's with the double-standards?  --[[User:WWillis|WWillis]] 12:33, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::What is this ice thing?[[User:Prof0705|Prof0705]] 12:37, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*A vandal group, Doctor, errr, Professor. No worries.  Users above have been blocked.  --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 12:41, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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:*How'd you know who is in the group "ice"? Seems mighty strange. May I postulate that you are having another night of the long knives? [[User:Scutter|Scutter]] 11:41, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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::By their interest in what's going on.  Ask a question or make a comment about the blocks?  You're clearly part of the "cabal."  Goodbye. [[User:Murray|Murray]] 17:36, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*Exactly....good to see another with solid reasoning abilities! --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 18:51, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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== Scientology Page ==
 
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Why was the scientology page deleted? [[User:Scutter|Scutter]] 11:53, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
 
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*It became a magnet for vandals, and those pushing their own agenda's and POV, one of which was attacking the Scientology people because of what they believe, and that isn't nice or Christian, is it? --[[User:TK|<small>Sysop-</small>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 18:55, 19 May 2007 (EDT)
 

Revision as of 18:57, May 20, 2007

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