Conservapedia talk:Commandments

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Encyclopedic Content

We should add a new commandment that states that only things that qualify as encyclopedic content will be allowed. one of our criticisims of Wikipedia is "Wikipedia claims about 1.5 million articles, but what it does not say is that a large number of those articles have zero educational value. For example, Wikipedia has 995 separate articles about "Moby" and "song". Many hundreds of thousands of Wikipedia articles -- perhaps over half its website -- are about music, Hollywood, and other topics and gossip beneath a regular encyclopedia." We should be backing this up with a commandment. --TimSvendsen 22:31, 24 January 2007 (EST)

• Tim, I don't know if that's all that necessary right now. As you say on the South Park page... we have only deleted one because of its content. Remember, we don't want to have a ton of rules. If this ever becomes a major problem we can add it. PhilipB 08:59, 25 January 2007 (EST)
• Perhaps we should simply make a guideline about encyclopedic content. It could read something like this: "When creating new pages, we request that you attempt to limit your contributions to encyclopedic content." If we add that, we will need to define Encyclopedic Content. I think one of our main problems is that this is rather difficult to define. This whole issue is not very important at the moment, so we can probably just continue what we have been doing so far for the time being. I think we will need a rule on this at some point in the future, however. We should discuss this further so we will be have a plan to use when that time comes. ~ SharonS 13:11, 25 January 2007 (EST)

We need to add a commandment to prevent a problem from happening in the future. Is there ever a reason to allow an article that is not encyclopedic content? If not, then why not have a commandment. --TimSvendsen 22:48, 25 January 2007 (EST)

If we add an encyclopedic content commandment, it will keep people from posting non-encyclopedic content to begin with. Can anyone give an example of non-encyclopedic content that we would want to keep. --TimSvendsen 10:37, 31 January 2007 (EST)

We criticize Wikipedia for havin lots of useless articles that a "real encyclopedia" would not include. If we do not make a rule about such things here, then when we start getting alot of users, we will start having the same problem here. --TimSvendsen 15:37, 7 February 2007 (EST)

Tim, I changed my mind. I think it would be smart to make a command about this. PhilipB 15:44, 7 February 2007 (EST)

What is meant by what a real encyclopedia would have? For example, there has been some discussion about whether an article about South Park is acceptable. One could similarly ask about whether the Daily Show would be a legitimate topic for an article(certainly the fact that it was one of the most popular political comedy show on TV and is often accused of having a liberal bias is relevant) or what about comic strips such as Doonsebury and Opus? Similarly, going backwards in time, what about the Twilight Zone which in its original incarnation often included social commentary? Or Gilbert and Sullivan who in there day were considered to be pop culture. Heck, we can continue this all the way back to the Oresteia. If a line is going to be drawn, it should be clear where it is. JoshuaZ 15:46, 7 February 2007 (EST)

I think that we should have a Commandment limiting entries to "encyclopedic content," and then define encyclopedic content in a seperate page. on the subject of TV shows, we should establish concrete criteria that disqualifies most TV shows but might allow some that have had a particular impact. (I am not sure on South Park it does not seem to me to be very imortant, but I do not know much about it.) --TimSvendsen 17:09, 7 February 2007 (EST)

To be honest, its hard for me to see how we couldn't have an article on it given how political the show is and how many people watch it. Also, I think your response about defining it on another page is a bit of a non-answer. Part of my concern above was how to define encyclopedic content and whether there is a good defintion. How possible it is to come to an agreement about how to define encyclopedic content is relevant to whether or not we should have the policy.JoshuaZ 17:14, 7 February 2007 (EST)

I personally know virtually nothing about South Park so I do not really know if we should have it. --TimSvendsen 17:28, 7 February 2007 (EST)

Possible Definitions

Make suggestions for defining encyclopedic content here.

The word "encyclopedia" comes from the root "-pedia," learning. "Encyclo-" means... well, here's what the American Heritage dictionary says:

The word encyclopedia, which to us usually means a large set of books, descends from a phrase that involved coming to grips with the contents of such books. The Greek phrase is enkuklios paideia, made up of enkuklios, “cyclical, periodic, ordinary,” and paideia, “education,” and meaning “general education.” Copyists of Latin manuscripts took this phrase to be a single Greek word, enkuklopaedia, with the same meaning, and this spurious Greek word became the New Latin word encyclopaedia, coming into English with the sense “general course of instruction,” first recorded in 1531. In New Latin the word was chosen as the title of a reference work covering all knowledge.[1]

"Knowledge" has several dictionary meanings, but since the -pedia root means "education," I think the meaning of "knowledge" that applies here is "Learning; erudition: teachers of great knowledge."[2]

So, my definition of "encyclopedic content" would be "content that is clearly related to a school curriculum." In the case of the World Book, I think that's a high school curriculum; the Britannica, a college curriculum.Dpbsmith 19:25, 7 February 2007 (EST)

Here is a general idea for a definition of encyclopedic content: Content that is useful, informative, important, major news, no advertising, no movie or TV show reviews, Etc. --TimSvendsen 17:28, 7 February 2007 (EST)

Unofficial Poll

Encyclopedic Content Commandment.

For

1.--TimSvendsen 17:12, 7 February 2007 (EST)

2.-- PhilipB 13:15, 14 February 2007 (EST)

3 MountainDew 01:16, 7 March 2007 (EST) (although maybe as a suggested guideline more than a rule)

Against

1. Cross that bridge when you come to it. Dpbsmith 19:25, 7 February 2007 (EST)

2. Clearly not what we want. For example, this would prohibit articles about documentaries. For example, I think most of would see Inherit the Wind, The Passion of The Christ, Birth of a Nation, An Inconvenient Truth, Farehenheit 9/11 as all candidates for articles. JoshuaZ 18:42, 15 February 2007 (EST)

Reply I don't see how it would prohibit documentaries or movies. --TimSvendsen 19:17, 15 February 2007 (EST)

Well then, what precisely are you prohibiting by "no movie or TV show reviews"?JoshuaZ 19:57, 15 February 2007 (EST)

I mean movie reviews as in: this is a good movie because... or don't see this movie... More Opinionated POV stuff. I guess I could have been more specific. --TimSvendsen 22:57, 15 February 2007 (EST)

That doesn't end up saying much. I mean, Wikipedia doesn't allow movie reviews in that sense either. It isn't clear to me now what precisely would be disallowed by this policy that isn't trivial. JoshuaZ 23:00, 15 February 2007 (EST)

3. Count me as against this proposed limitation. Deletions can always be made later, but at this early stage in the project we want it to be able to grow in many different directions. Recall the parable about the wheat and the chaff? Jesus explained that you do not sort the two early, but only at harvest. No reason to rush to delete and risk stamping out something that might grow and bear fruit.

I might add that the Bias in Wikipedia page does not complain about useless Wikipedia entries. One (of 22) complaints there criticized Wikipedia's bragging about have so many entries, which the vast majority of its entries are frivilous. That is a complaint about misleading advertising, not a demand for deletion. Several complaints about Wikipedia on Bias in Wikipedia are about speedy and arbitrary deletions, something we want to avoid here.--Aschlafly 19:45, 15 February 2007 (EST)

Reply The Examples of Bias page has 5 entries attacking Wikipedia for having too much useless Info, (Nos 7, 10, 18, 19 and 22) and only 1 attacking the deletion policy, (No 9) --TimSvendsen 11:59, 15 February 2007 (EST)

"Inclusionism" versus "deletionism"

This discussion, and the one at AFD Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, parallel a very longstanding polarization in Wikipedia between "inclusionism" and "deletionism." When people are allowed to edit without direct supervision, they concentrate on those topics for which they have the greatest enthusiasm, which leads to unbalanced coverage. It also leads to the creation of articles which detractors call "cruft:" articles covering extreme minutiae, or articles covering things of interest to only a tiny number of people.

Aschlafly criticizes the overemphasis on pop culture, but I don't know if he's even run across the cruftier kinds of Wikipedia articles. Some specific topic areas that have generated heated discussion in the past:

• Unimportant roads, e.g. Netcong Circle, County Road 520, New Jersey
• Minuscule micronations, e.g. Republic of Kugelmugel (small organizations which claim to be independent nations.) (A well-known one would be Sealand).
• Conlangs (artificially constructed languages) used by tiny numbers of people, e.g. Toki Pona (Well-known ones would be Esperanto... and Klingon).
• Overspecialized lists, e.g. List of songs containing the name of a ship, aircraft or spacecraft
• Schools with nothing obviously special or important about them, e.g. Battlefield Middle School

People are constantly contributing articles about games, phrases, etc. said to be in use at a single school, to the point where Wikipedia actually has a guideline, Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day.

(No doubt Aschlafly, who keeps giving me rope on which I keep hanging myself, will add these to his examples of Wikipedian silliness...) Inclusionists concentrate on the importance of building the encyclopedia and attracting contributions, and emphasize the virtues of improving rather than deleting sketchy articles on "silly" subjects. Some inclusionists would accept articles on any topic whatsoever, subject only to "verifiability." Deletionists emphasize the importance of keeping a high standard and getting rid of low-quality articles that are not actually being improved. Dpbsmith 06:16, 16 February 2007 (EST)

A different problem, which Conservapedia may encounter in time, is self-promotion. As Wikipedia began to attract wide notice, it occurred to many people that an article in Wikipedia could be an inexpensive form of publicity. This has led to fairly formalized "notability" criteria for websites, corporations, and rock bands. Dpbsmith 08:13, 16 February 2007 (EST)

WWII German Entries

We all know i have done alot of WWII entries in German. I hope i am not breaking rule #5. Get back to me on that. User:Will N.

American English spelling and foreign names.

Should Martín Torrijos or Martin Torrijos be preffered? JoshuaZ 21:00, 15 February 2007 (EST)

• We seem to be using American spellings, as in the case of Hapsburg (instead of Habsburg), so I guess we should omit the accent mark. ~ SharonS 21:07, 15 February 2007 (EST)

The accent is part of the guy's name. American spellings accept the accent mark within names. --David R 12:47, 16 February 2007 (EST)

"Metric" vs. "English" units in scientific articles?

While changing Earth from a prank entry to a real entry, I realized I don't know what the Conservapedian community prefers with respect to style. For over a century, scientific writing has always used "metric" units exclusively, while in commerce and everyday life the United States uses the "English" system (pounds, inches, feet, miles, gallons, etc.)

For a while, in the seventies, it appeared that the U. S. might start using the metric system in ordinary life, but the Reagan administration put the kibosh on that. The imposition of the metric system into ordinary life is vaguely seen as "liberal" and opposition to it as "conservative." (BTW one of the horrors of George Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty-Four" was that his nightmare totalitarian state had imposed the metric system on England and pubs wouldn't draw "pints" any more).

(Formally and properly the "metric" system is called SI for "système international") The system used in the United States is sometimes called "English" but is properly called "U. S. Customary" because some of the units are different; gallons, for example).

The metric system has been legal in the United States (though of course not mandatory) since 1866, and all U. S. measurements have for a very long time been legally defined with reference to the metric system, i.e. the legal definition of one inch is 25.4 mm.

What style is preferred in Conservapedia for clearly scientific material?

1) Doesn't matter. Use whatever is convenient, i.e. whatever was used in whatever source was consulted for writing the material; for scientific material that would usually be SI. As a service to the reader, add a conversion later at any convenient time and without any fussing or making a political issue of it.

2) English (metric). Use U. S. Customary, with metric equivalent in parentheses: "The average distance from the Earth to the Sun is about 93 million miles (150 million km)?"

3) Metric (English). Use SI, with U. S. Customary equivalent in parentheses: "The average distance from the Earth to the Sun is about 150 million kilometers (93 million mi)."

4) English only. Use U. S. Customary only: "The average distance from the Earth to the Sun is about 93 million miles.?"

5) Metric only. "The average distance from the Earth to the Sun is about 150 million miles."

Choice 1 is my preference.

P. S. Google will convert units for you. If you "search" for "50 cc in fluid ounces" Google returns "50 cc = 1.69070113 US fluid ounces" Dpbsmith 05:43, 1 March 2007 (EST)

I don think that we can ask our contributors to bother converting their information to our prefered system.

--BenjaminS 09:14, 1 March 2007 (EST)

External Links, Bots

I propose the following. External links should be to reputable sites that are connected to the article subject. and Unauthorized bots are prohibited.

Thoughts? Geo. 20:51, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Do you have any firm criteria in mind for defining 'reputable?' Tsumetai 20:54, 6 March 2007 (EST)

And what do you mean by connected? In fact, I would think in many cases a certain level of lack of connection is a good thing since there is likely to be less bias. JoshuaZ 20:58, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Reputable will probably have to be done on a case by case basis and I mean connected as in not placing a link for cooking in the physics sections. Geo. 21:04, 6 March 2007 (EST)

I don't think we need a policy to tell people that completely unrelated links shouldn't be put in (I'd also phrase that differently anyways something like "External links should be relevant to the subject of the article at hand". I am very worried about cases by case reputability deciding. While obviosly at the end of the day every case is slightly different, we will need general rules. (So for example, it seems that some users have already asserted that the Talk Origins Archive is so bad that we can't even link to it, while CreationWiki can even be used as a source). JoshuaZ 21:11, 6 March 2007 (EST)

I created a list to compile possible rules.Geo. 21:43, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Anyone opposed to bot restrictions? Geo. 21:43, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Brainstorm List-Reputability Guidelines

• The site generally should not exist primarily for profit
• Sites should have factual content

Regarding repeatedly changing words to the "Brit" spelling

I think Conservapedia should merely slightly favor American spelling of words since most users would probably be American. Specifically, I think that only titles of articles should favor the American spelling and we should have redirects using the British spellings. I think that people from Britain and the commonwealth (who probably use British spellings) can make valuable contributions to Conservapedia. I see no reason to alienate these individuals by majoring on the minors. I see no problem with using British spellings and for Brits and others to change the various words spelling to British spellings since they likely believe the "American spelling" is incorrectly spelled. I see no reason to ban someone for repeatedly changing the spelling of words to the British spelling since they might in many cases not even know there was an American spelling to various words. In short, I see no reason why Conservapedia should be associated with being a "Ugly American" organization. I think such a policy outlined here would insure that Conservapedia has more of a global impact. Conservative 22:59, 6 March 2007 (EST)conservative

I see your point, but we are an American organization, and the Commandment does not completely prohibit British spelling. Geo. 23:02, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Actually it says that the user will be block after repeated uses of the British spelling. But I do not see much dissent coming from our motherland. A British magazine did an article on Conservapedia, in which they gave our description and a short paragraph. It was lacking in criticism of our rule. So I don't think it is as offensive as you make it out to be Conservative. However, I do not object to making redirect pages that convert from the British spelling. That seems like a very acceptable idea. --<<-David R->> 23:09, 6 March 2007 (EST)

I just wanted to add that I am an American and was born in America. Conservative 00:06, 7 March 2007 (EST)conservative

Haha. I did not mean to convey that I thought you British. I am sure you are a great American. --<<-David R->> 00:10, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Bots

I proposed a Commandment above prohibiting unauthorized bots. Anyone opposed to implementation? Geo. 01:13, 7 March 2007 (EST)

What exactly is a bot?

a bot, as defined in Commandment 7, is a piece of software that can make over a hundred edits per second. Geo. 00:56, 9 March 2007 (EST)

What counts as "gossip"

I don't think its just discussion about people persay, but you mentioned in general its a desire to avoid entries that seem like a "national enquirer" thing. So where do entries like facebook and myspace come in? Does this stuff count as worthwhile subject matter or is it "gossipy"? Tmtoulouse 00:14, 8 March 2007 (EST)

In my opinion, MySpace could be argued to be a legitimate entry because it's frequently in the news relating to the issues of Internet privacy and safety. However, I saw that entry and the Facebook one and had the same concerns that you did. That being said, Mr. Schlafly said somewhere else that there's nothing wrong with having a few "fun" entries, so I don't think that it's a big deal. MountainDew 01:46, 8 March 2007 (EST)

Obscenity

Since Conservapedia admins are deleting articles that they consider obscene the Conservapedia Commandments should probably mention this and their definition of obscenity. On a related note family friendliness should also be defined . Sulgran 00:18, 8 March 2007 (EST)

Family friendly and obscenity are pretty much "Would you show this to your child?" Geo. 01:12, 8 March 2007 (EST)

What people are willing to show their children varies from family to family and on the age of the child. Iin my family the level of profanity allowed depended on context of its use- profanity directed at someone else was much more problematic than profanity used as interjections or adverbs. ( can think of at least one English word that has two forms and depending where you are one is more acceptable than the other. I would also ask if the word for a female dog is acceptable? Does it depend on what context one is using it in? What about the word for an illegimate offspring? Two examples which I can probably safely mention are "gosh" which is no longer considered a serious swear by almost anyone and the word "sex." All of these seem to depend on both age and individual family. A much clearer criterion is needed. JoshuaZ 03:14, 8 March 2007 (EST)

Sock & Meat Puppets

Opinions? Sulgran 00:42, 9 March 2007 (EST)

Due to the restrictive nature of account creation and anon blocking, I don't believe we have any. Geo. 00:45, 9 March 2007 (EST)

No probably not but it might be a good idea to get something in the commandments before trouble starts.