Talk:Scotland

in scottland, the kilt(that spelled right?) isnt that like your family's colors? --Will N. 11:54, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

Yes Will N, the kilt is a tradtional dress still worn at weddings and social functions that is made in the clan (think family) tartan. Each tartan is comprised of colours specific to that family.

And Ed Poor, please can you stop removing the kilt picture. It is incredibly disrespectful to the Scots to remove not only a picture depicting their National dress but also their First Minister. The kilt has nothing to do with homosexuality, which frankly, is a topic that is discussed far too often on this site. Trashbat 12:16, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

Kilts

Kilts are an item of dress, it is the tartan that has an association with families, or more accurately, Clan. In addition many public bodies have their own particular tartan. In the picture, Jack McConnell is seen wearing a pin-stripe kilt as part of an effort to promote Tartan Day.

Kilts are often made from Family/Clan Tartans, though not exclusively - there are many designs that have no particular family affiliation (such as Regimental designs) - Kilts are aso worn with somewhat plainer designs as well, and have even been made from leather.. I think the map is more appropriate than the pic of Jack McConnell - he is an elected representative, and does not necessarily epitomise Scottishness (indeed - pending the outcome of the general election on Thursday 03-May-2007, he may or may not continue as First Minister.) --SpinnakerMagic 17:45, 01 May 2007 (BST)

I've replaced the picture with one more dull appropriate.LordWhimsey 08:49, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

homosexuality and the kilt - the link

File:JackMcConnell.png

A scotsman wearing his skirt (known as a kilt in Scotland)([1])

'

em there is none - and I suggest any americans who visit scotland don't make suggest that linkage to members of, for example, her Maj's 51 (Scottish) Brigade. A frank and full exchange of viewpoints might then occur! --Cgday 15:05, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

This being Conservapedia, surely one would expect the description of Scotland by the leading conservative Christian Pat Robertson, to be included in the article. He described Scotland as a "dark country full of homosexuals". Auld Nick 05:57, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

Not in the lead. And not out of context. Also, a photo of a man in a skirt rather than in a traditional plaid kilt makes more of a statement about homosexuality, gender identity disorder or cross-dressing than it does about Scotland. Try to keep your mind on the purpose of this project. --Ed Poor 08:33, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

What? since when is a skirt and a kilt the same thing? Ed, you're way in the wrong on this one. Jrssr5 08:42, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

Ed, you are wrong - check out this website to see how the kilt is evolving - traditional kilts are only part of it [2].

Wrong about what? Please restate the assertion you think I have made. (The fashion photo you showed me of contemporary young people doesn't tell me what you mean.) --Ed Poor 08:58, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

You asserted that "a photo of a man in a skirt rather than in a traditional plaid kilt makes more of a statement about homosexuality, gender identity disorder or cross-dressing than it does about Scotland." Whereas the link I provided shows that all kinds of non-traditional materials (denim, leather, camouflage patterns, tweed, pinstripe suit cloth, etc.) are being used to make kilts. The photo is of a man in a modern kilt. You assert that it is a skirt. Homosexuality and transvestisism are in no way associated with modern kilts. You assert that they are. To Scots, such words are particularly offensive.LordWhimsey 09:06, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

Ed, even if the quote was out of context what is wrong with showing the conservative view of Scotland? Pro-Gaiety and homosexualism is rife in Scotland:

• The repeal of laws banning the promotion of homosexuality in schools
• The legalisation of so called gay marriage
• Allowing homosexuals to adopt children
• Allowing homosexual teachers to teach homosexual sex to children
• Open encouragement of homosexual soldiers and policemen
• The banning of pro-Christian opinions at sports events

Those are just a few from the multitude of examples of how the homosexual agenda is permeating Scotland. Surely Scotland is a "dark country full of homosexuals" and this should be reflected here?

Auld Nick 09:07, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

Kilts are *not* skirts - the difference isn't subtle... it's interesting the connection some draw between 'cross-dressing' and kilt wearing; whenever I wear my kilt (especially in England and elsewhere) it usually attracts lots of attention from women... 'a dark country full of homosexuals' - I'm not even going to be drawn on that one, but featuring it prominently hardly does anything for the credibility of the article as a whole. --SpinnakerMagic 15:03, 02 May 2007 (BST)

Spin, your statement that a kilt is not a skirt disagrees with the caption Nick put on the image to our upper right. The words Scotsman wearing his skirt (known as a kilt in Scotland) imply (1) that the man was wearing a skirt and (2) that a skirt is known as a kilt in Scotland.

Would the two of you please sort this out. --Ed Poor 10:09, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

I see your point. The article that Jack McConnell is wearing is a kilt. Skirts are not known as kilts - the two words are not synonymous. Although kilts are mostly associated with male attire, this isn't universally true by any means. --SpinnakerMagic 15:21, 02 May 2007 (BST)

Might be worth clarifying the whole kilt issue, either by adding to this article (Traditional Attire section?) or by creating a separate linked page for the kilt. Perhaps one of our resident Scots would be able to? --Trashbat 13:06, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

I'd be happy that the image be replaced with a piper but I'm having difficulty finding a fair use one. Probably worth noting that most images of pipers will be in full ceremonial garb (kilt, sporran, etc). Perhaps someone will have more luck than I finding a suitable image. --Trashbat 13:24, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

At the risk of going round in circles, again the Pat Robertson comment - with respect, who is this guy? (I don't mean literally - I know who he is) There is no indication of how his opinion is relevant - whether or not you consider it to be true, it just sounds like abuse, which just undermines the credibility of (at least) the whole article. --SpinnakerMagic 11:04, 04 May 2007 (BST)

Mr. Robertson's opinion is important as an example of Conservative thinking. Here at Conservapedia homosexuality is taken very seriously as can be seen at that article and others such as homosexual agenda, gay rights, homophobia and their accompanying talk pages. It is important that such matters are given a prominent position in Conservapedia, for example the Main Page news items such as this, this, this and this. Such conservative facts (Differences with Wikipedia No. 9) are always displayed prominently and not censored like at the liberally biased Wikipedia. In fact I think the information in question should appear right at the top of the article.

Auld Nick 15:12, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Ok. Pat Robertson's opinions are clearly in line with many(most? ..I don't know) conservative thinkers, at least in the US. ('Conservative' has a related but slightly different meaning in the UK)

(from Racism) 'Racism is making broad generalizations about a group of people based on percieved notions' - articles in the press are designed to be provocative and inflammatory - that doesn't necessarily cast doubt on the truth of the information they refer to, but they are far from a foolproof source, not very indicative of the nature of a culture.

I'm not accusing Pat Robertson of racism, but he's a bit close to the wire. (I suspect he would argue about 'perceived notions' - and whether he was making a 'broad generalisation')

I'm not sure what you mean by 'Conservative Facts' - it's definitely a fact that Pat Robertson said that, but the truth of it is a different thing altogether..

I understand that it is important that the guiding principles of Conservapedia are enforced, but the article seems to have more to say about the authors' abhorrence of homosexuality than it does about it's subject matter - irrespective of your views, that doesn't do any good at all. SpinnakerMagic 11:03, 07 May 2007 (BST)

Liberalism seems to have won the day and the truth about the pernicious homosexual agenda has been hidden away in the article Church of Scotland where I assume the hope is that no one will find it.

People looking for information about Scotland are being denied some very important conservative facts. Auld Nick 12:05, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

"the truth about the pernicious homosexual agenda" Ah yes. That old chestnut. Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. --SpinnakerMagic 15:49, 14 May 2007 (BST)

Dèan magadh air na-h pàrras amadain an seo. Auld Nick 10:58, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

ok.. pretty sure that wasn't what I was doing. Anyway - this isn't especially productive. People reading the article will doubtless make up their own minds as to the credibility of the information therein, and the peculiar list of references. --SpinnakerMagic 18:03, 15 May 2007 (BST)

Ok, I AM Scottish, and a kilt is NOT A SKIRT! IT IS ALSO NOT WHAT A SKIRT IS CALLED IN SCOTLAND! WE CALL THEM SKIRTS! YES WE ACTUALLY DO SPEAK ENGLISH! SOME OF US ARE IN FACT QUITE LITERATE! I WOULD THANK YOU KINDLY TO TAKE THAT GARBAGE OFF OF THIS PAGE! --Daerean 14:59, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

What is this then? Looks like a skirt to me, even if it is caled a kilt. Most dictionaries would agree that a skirt is

1. The part of a garment, such as a dress or coat, that hangs freely from the waist down.
2. A garment hanging from the waist and worn by women and girls.
3. A part or attachment resembling the skirt of a garment, especially:
4. One of the leather flaps hanging from the side of a saddle.
5. The lower outer section of a rocket vehicle.
6. A flexible strip hanging from the base of an air-cushion vehicle.
7. A piece of fabric that extends over or beyond something to afford protection.
   

The transvestite - or otherwise - habits of Scotsmen aside, a "kilt" is most definitely a "skirt" by definition. And finally, why do kilt wearers not simply wear the masculine version of the tartan garment, the "trews"? Fox 15:20, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Trews are not a 'masculine version of the tartan garment'. I think the members of the Royal Regiment of Scotland who wear kilts and sporrans as part of their dress uniforms might take exception to the above.. indeed, Scottish troops wore kilts in combat as late as 1940. (not so much by the second world war, but compared to the uniforms worn by other British troops in (for example) the Napoleonic Wars, the kilt was a remarkably practical garment) See also www.cabarfeidh.com/kilts_in_the_past.htm SpinnakerMagic 15:38, 29 May 2007 (BST)

I think some of you need to get out more! See the world. Understand the world and accept the differences. Some of the closed-minded piffle that has been spouted above shows not only ignorance, but deliberate ignorance from minds too wrapped up in their own ideological and cultural prison to accept that all people are not American. A kilt is a kilt is a kilt. It has nothing at all to do with being gay. It is an item of traditional dress that is worn with pride - fierce pride - and sometimes nostalgia and with a sense of belonging. There is nothing equivocal about the kilt. Unlike the ubiquitous suit and tie, or jeans and teeshirt, it says something proud and definite. It says "I am a Scot!" And what is wrong with that? Yes. He may even be gay. But that's no more likely than if he was a from any other country in the world. Ask the Pope in his lovely white outfit if he is gay. Check out the Greek guard...they're really pretty. Say something to the cop in Samoa (thats Samoa - not American Samoa - where they still hold on to tradition and their family values)and their cops, both male and female, wear a nice blue lap lap, and carry a nice big stick! God made man in His image. Now it seems we have many Americans trying to make man into theirs!! Please show a bit of respect. If the rest of the world can accept a Scot in his kilt for what it is, why can't you? "Honi soit qui mal y pense"! AlanE 15:37, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

References

I'm sorry but I'm Scottish and I had to delete the entire section labled "Scotland and Cultural Controversies". I will not stand idly by and see my country being run down in print. Some of the points made were out and out lies. Protection for paedophiles? Utter nonsense. Repeating Pat Robertsons claims that Scotland is a "dark country full of homosexuals" is plain wrong and a touch hypocritical coming from an American. Some facts; political correctness is an American invention; gay liberation is an American invention; the sexual "revolution" was an American invention. People who live in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones. And what is this obsession with homosexuality? Scotland has 2000 years of recorded history, was at the forefront of the industrial revolution, has given the world many writers, philosophers, soldiers, statesmen, scientists, engineers as well as the Presbyterrian religon but the Conservapedia article devotes about 10% of its article on Scotland on supposed support for the "homosexual agenda". I can tell you from a position of authority (I do live here) that the inference is melodramatic and overstated. Oh, and a kilt is definetely not a skirt. Just ask some of the Scottish troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and see the response you get.

Cities

Six? Inverness is very small for a city. Inhabitants of Perth (which is much larger) and elsewhere will be annoyed by not being mentioned.

You might usefully put a link somewhere here to. --Jeremiah4-22 13:36, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

That's partly why I added in the word "major" to the section. That way other cities wouldn't feel as slighted since it'd be near impossible to add every single one to the list. Jrssr5 13:46, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

I meant to say, You might usefully put a link somewhere here to [[Category:Scottish Towns and Cities]]. --Jeremiah4-22 14:55, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

Gotcha ... unfortunately you'll have to go to a sysop now as the article is re-locked. Jrssr5 16:22, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

Blocking has the unfortunate consequence of perpetrating historical inaccuracy. Example: The Union of England Scotland and Ireland came about in 1801, not 1707. Can someone "break in" and change that please.AlanE 20:12, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

Union with England

The line "The current Chancellor of the Exchequer, and expected future prime minister Gordon Brown, is Scottish." is now factually incorrect, Gordon Brown is now the current prime minister of the United Kingdom.

Protecting sysop informed :) File:User Fox.png Fox (talk|contribs) 08:21, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

Opening up sometime?

Any chance this article will become unlocked again? It has been close to two months and that's usually a pretty long time for vandals to be lurking around. Just a thought Learn together 17:08, 2 July 2007 (EDT)