Talk:Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr.

RJJ, we're just not having it, equating left wing, liberal anti-Semites and anti-communists as "conservatives." Rob Smith 12:26, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

1. Joe was NOT liberal; 2) he was right wing; 3) he did use anti-semitic language; 4) he was a major supporter of many conservative causes. He represented the conservative, Catholic, pro-business, anti-union, anti-Communist wing of the Democratic party. Is there anyone who thinks he was a liberal or left-wing? RJJensen 13:11, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

Show me sources, and Jack, Bobby, or Ted, maybe FDR too, would be the best. Rob Smith 13:15, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

Doris Kearns Goodwin, The Fitzgeralds and the Kennedys: An American Saga (1987) is a good place top start. What details bother you? RJJensen 13:17, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

The noted liberal apologist, Doris Kearns Goodwin? For most conservatives, she is little better than a troll. It is astounding anyone conservative would consider her a reliable source! What's next, Maureen Dowd? --ṬK_/Admin^/Talk 14:14, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

My own views are based on reading his private letters, which have been published. But what about Joe Kennedy makes people think he was a liberal, that's the mystery! I think they assume that since the Kennedy brothers have been liberal for 40+ years it must have been true for Joe, but not so. Bobby Kennedy in the 1950s for example was close to Joe McCarthy (who was godfather to one of Bobby's kids--for Catholics, that's pretty close). I've listed the major issues of the day on every one of which Kennedy took the conservative position--economics, social issues, foreign policy, Communism, labor unions, taxes, religion. He funded conservative causes and was vehemently denounced by liberals as a conservative. RJJensen 14:24, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

I propose that instead of arguing the matter, we use either of two criteria:

1. how have historians (or politicians) labeled him?
2. list the positions or activities which CP regards as liberal or conservative, and make a chart.

Anti-communism probably qualifies as conservative, but I personally don't regard anti-Semitic language that way. The latter sounds more like an anti-right-wing smear. We need to get clear on stuff like this - including whether ending discrimination against blacks is a cause more supported by Republicans and conservatives, or by Democrats and liberals. I daresay there is a lively dispute over who "owns" the race issue.

I'm reading this article from the Claremont Institute to try to learn something about this mess. So far, it sounds like an anti-Republican smear campaign. --Ed Poor ^Talk 14:35, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

Joe Kennedy did use anti-semitic language privately, but he also was the person who tried--and succeeded--in getting the Catholic Church to silence the radio priest Charles Coughlin, who was broadcasting anti-semitic attacks every week. The context is that there was a terrific battle going on inside the Democratic party, 1930s-1950s, in major states (New York especially) between the more conservative Irish Catholics (led by Kennedy) and the much more radical-leftwing Jews (who led the American Labor Party and the garment unions). They had very hard words about each other: Anti-Semite! Anti-Catholic! The Jews were especially bitter about Kennedy because he was an isolationist in 1940. Our article on Eleanor Roosevelt touches on this (ER was not Jewish but they were her base in NY, where she fought the Irish hard.) See for example Abie's Irish Rose, which tried to defuse the tension with humor. Ron Bayor has written a major book on the conflictRJJensen 14:51, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

TK, based on RJ's response, I'm getting the idea that there's more to history than, "Are you, or are you not, a liberal?" Let's take advantage of Prof. Jensen's vast knowledge - and more importantly - his willingness to devote countless hours to this project. :-) --Ed Poor ^Talk 15:55, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

On GOP racism in South issue, I think Dan Carter is quite wrong and I plan to wrote that up at length. Basically the GOP in the South is based on the white collar/business/better educated groups that are the least racist and the most hostile to Wallace. (Wallace was very bad for business.) RJJensen 15:59, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

RJJ, let's look at your writing, New_Deal#Relief.2C_Recovery.2C_and_Reform says,

"Liberal" no longer referred to classical liberalism but now meant a supporter of the New Deal; conservative meant an opponent.

New_Deal#Government_Role:_balance_labor.2C_business_and_farming : Reform was based on the assumption that the depression was caused by the inherent instability of the market and that government intervention was necessary to rationalize and stabilize the economy, and to balance the interests of farmers, business and labor. It included ...regulation of Wall Street (SEC, 1934)..."..

Comment: Joe Kennedy was the first head of SEC. So, as an opponent of the New Deal, in your words, as a conservative, Joe Kennedy was a New Deal reformer who believed in government intervention in the market place. Again,

Great_Depression#Causes : "Socialists tend to call it a failure of the free market system, while advocates of free markets blame the depression on government efforts to transform the U.S. economy into Socialism. The political realignment of the New Deal Coalition could take an anti-business tone because bankers were in bad odor in 1933 (just as they are in 2009). ...In historical terms, the "lessons" of the Great Depression have been applied to preventive measures, and in the Financial Crisis of 2008, helped determine what remedies to apply.

Comment: So was Joe Kennedy an advocate of the free market, or a socialist who claimed it was a failure of the free market system?

What I asked for above was primary source data, Jack, Bobby, Ted, FDR, even Tip O'Neill (Man of the House) to verify your claim. As to Doris Kearnes Goodwin, a Lyndon Johnson groupie (bimbo would be the Clintonian term) does not impress us, whatever academic credentials she may have. I demand primary source data.

The only argument you have is, he was an anti-Semite, therefore he was conservative. Rob Smith 18:42, 28 August 2009 (EDT)