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| | All other general comments on the topic of infant baptism not directly pertaining to the structure of this article and to the sources of information cited in it should be directed to '''[[Debate: Infant baptism]]'''. | | All other general comments on the topic of infant baptism not directly pertaining to the structure of this article and to the sources of information cited in it should be directed to '''[[Debate: Infant baptism]]'''. |
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| − | == '''Love more than faith is necessary for salvation''' ==
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| − | After almost 73 years of life, and almost 61 of them believing in Jesus, I am convinced that it is not faith finally that saves, but genuine love in the soul, inclining toward God, in response to the gift of his grace''';''' with the opposite of love, selfishness in the soul, inclining away from God, in response to the offering presence of the gift of his grace which is rejected.
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| − | :"And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."
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| − | The Bible testifies that even infants not yet born are capable of love or hatred toward God, who looks on the heart, and sees what no one on earth can see. That's what I put in the main article:
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| − | :According to the Bible, even infants and those in the womb are able to praise God or go astray from him by sin. See the following:
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| − | :[http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/job/31-18.htm Job 31:18]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/8-2.htm Psalm 8:2]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/139-16.htm Psalm 139:16]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/49-1.htm Isaiah 49:1]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/jeremiah/1-5.htm Jeremiah 1:5]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/21-16.htm Matthew 21:16]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/1-41.htm Luke 1:41]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/18-15.htm Luke 18:15]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/acts/2-39.htm Acts 2:39]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/acts/17-27.htm Acts 17:27]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/2_peter/3-9.htm 2 Peter 3:9]; ''compare'' [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/58-3.htm Psalm 58:3]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/ezekiel/18-4.htm Ezekiel 18:4]; [http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/9-13.htm Romans 9:13].
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| − | St. James testified that even the demons believe in God, and they tremble, because they did not love God, but rebelled and fell. The Letter to the Hebrews says
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| − | :"The word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do."
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| − | If any one wants to do His will, you will come to know the truth. And God will deal with you, for he is unwilling that any should perish. The more that those who love God come to know of his will in all things the more they willingly seek to fulfill it. This includes coming to faith in God, reading the scriptures, seeking his true Church to be able to worship with his people, and obeying whatever he has revealed to be most pleasing to him in conduct and belief and devotion of worship. Not every human being has such ability or mental capacity for understanding. It has been said that there is no one so blind as one who will not see, lest they change. Nevertheless, he who has ears to hear will hear, and to him who has will more be given. And [[Invincible ignorance|those who do not understand or know him]] he will love until within the depths of their soul known only to him they accept or reject his calling, "in the hope that they might feel after him and find him."
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| − | :"The Spirit of the Lord filleth the whole world." [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Wisdom%201%3A7 Wisdom 1:7]
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| − | :"hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us."
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| − | :A final note from me on this page. I recommend to anyone willing to inquire after the truth and is able to do so, to watch the EWTN program with Marcus Grodi, "The Journey Home". He interviews people who were Catholic and left and preached and witnessed against Catholicism and then came back to the Catholic Church based on the Bible, and people who had never been Catholic and were fervently anti-Catholic based on the Bible, who were later convinced to change their minds, by their growing knowledge of the Bible and the discrepancies between it and what they had been taught, and by the result of their prayer for guidance to God, prompting them to obey the Bible, check the facts, and find out what the Church actually teaches, instead of what they had been erroneously told it teaches, to take instruction and join the Catholic Church as the living body of Christ having the fullness of the Gospel of God.
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| − | :At the age of 12, when I "went forward to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior", I silently prayed, "Lord, if you ever show me truth that even totally overthrows what I think is the truth, then help me to drop that and cling to what you give me." I testify to every reader of this page that the Lord granted my prayer in full.
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| − | :I commend every reader here to the grace of the Holy Spirit and to the prayerful [[intercession]] of St. Jude, the patron of lost causes and impossible cases, and of St. Mary the Mother of Jesus, that you will come to know the loving truth of God and always seek to do his will, no matter what it may be. Amen. <br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 19:58, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
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| − | ::Dataclarifier, the Bible is clear that people are saved through faith. Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
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| − | ::I do realize that true faith will have works, but ultimately it is through faith that one is saved.
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| − | ::I think there is a lot of unnecessary friction on this page because you don't want to accept this matter.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:53, 4 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :::Amother important concept is that "God is a fair judge" as per Psalm 7:11. Therefore, the unbaptised thief on the cross went to heaven (Jesus told the thief on the cross who repented that "Today you will see me in paradise"). I do think that an obedient Christian with a good attitude will want to get baptised, yet the notion that the thief on the cross did not go to heaven when Jesus clearly said He was going to heaven, is an unreasonable idea.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:59, 4 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | ==A word on pride==
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| − | It is pride, the original sin, that hinders us and keeps us from the doctrine of grace. Pride makes us believe that there must be something that we can do to aid God in obtaining our salvation. Rather than accept the finished work of Christ, our pride does not let us humble ourselves before the cross. We insert exceptions, "yes, Jesus saves, contingent upon (insert exception, such as church teaching, water baptism, etc etc etc)", ''rendering the Word of God to no effect through man made church doctrine,'' changing the unfettered doctrine of grace, which requires us to humble ourselves and put away pride, into a doctrine of law and bring us again under subjection to God's wrath. This is that ''other gospel'' Paul warned of, ''which is no gospel at all''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 10:36, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | ==More evidence those who are under grace are saved from wrath and judgement==
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| − | *John 1:12 ''As many as received him gave he power to become sons of God''
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| − | *Luke 11:11 ''Who among you if your child asks for a fish would give him a snake?''
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| − | Once we are adopted into God's family (Romans 8:15; this is the real meaning of "catholic" - those outside the covenants of Abraham) we are nolonger under God's wrath (Romans 5:9). We are saved by grace. This is the meaning of salvation by grace, we ''will not'' be repaid according to our works. Our works are as filthy rags.
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| − | Any other gospel that teaches that God's children, i.e. those adopted into his family, will be repaid according to their works, is no gospel at all. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:06, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :What happens if you shoot someone on Fifth Avenue? Asking for an orange friend. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 17:20, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | ::Well, if you're a child of God, I suppose the same thing would happen that happened to Moses who killed the Egyptian, David who who killed Uzziah, Jeffrey Dahmer who killed 17 gays, or O.J. Simpson who murdered his wife.
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| − | ::Funny, ever think about that? Why did God choose two murderers, David and Moses, to write substantial portions of the Bible (Pentateuch, Psalms, much of Kings and Chronicles, etc)? Why did God choose two murderers to teach us about himself?
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| − | ::''I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent''
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| − | ::And I thank him and praise him every minute of every hour of every day for doing it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:43, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :::I'll spare you my full thoughts on Old Testament God's very stable genius. Seriously, though, are you arguing for:
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| − | :::# a kind of Calvinist "once saved, always saved", or
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| − | :::# do you actually believe it's possible to lose your golden ticket to Heaven through sufficiently wicked acts?
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| − | :::[[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 19:23, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | ::::Once saved, always saved. There was a time I was very skeptical of it, but Calvin convinced me. Anything else is a [[Gospel of Works]], rendering the work of Christ to no effect and making God a liar. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:32, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | ::::I think [[King Solomon]] is one of the best examples, although he probably died miserably and guilt ridden. OTOH, the spirit of God was taken from [[King Saul]], but that was before the ''spirit without measure'' was given. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:38, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :::::Thanks for a straightforward answer. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 21:03, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | == This should be easy to resolve. ==
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| − | An easy way to resolve this matter is to have a pro-infant babtism section and an anti-infant baptism section.
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| − | Giving both perspectives is essentially what was done in the [[Petrine Primacy]] article to resolve the conflict.
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| − | Why isn't that being done in this article? It seems like such an easy way to resolve this matter.
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| − | It seems to me some diplomacy has to be shown by both sides.
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| − | I suggest reading these articles on conflict resolution skills and putting them into practice:
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| − | https://blog.hubspot.com/service/conflict-resolution-skills
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| − | https://www.eaglesflight.com/blog/top-5-skills-needed-to-successfully-resolve-conflicts-in-the-workplace
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| − | https://www.helpguide.org/articles/relationships-communication/conflict-resolution-skills.htm
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| − | I hope this helps. [[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 17:44, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | All additional comments directly pertaining to the structure of the main article here and to the sources of information cited in it are welcome here.
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| − | :Yes and no. The real problem is [[Salvation]]. Look at that article. It's a mess. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | ::It can be resolved. The [[Petrine Primacy]] article was resolved. If Wikipedia can have its Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, etc begin to create an informative article, there is no reason why Conservapedia can't do the same.
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| − | ::It is just a matter of whether the parties geniunely want to resolve the matter.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 18:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | :::Well, looking at the Salvation article, the Intro right now is a big problem - and it's been that way for years evidently. It needs substantial revision. I'm not certain I'm the guy who should begin it (like Peter Strzok, because of my partisan bias). Any help you can give there to get it started would be appreciated. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 18:53, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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| − | ::::I have zero time to work on any articles. I am not sure when I will be free again.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 20:40, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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