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Debate: Infant baptism (view source)
Revision as of 02:42, November 6, 2019
, 02:42, November 6, 2019debate material posted on Talk:Infant baptism moved here
This is not surprising. IMO it underscores the truth that God will hold each individual to account, and a person's relationship with God is personal, not based on communal ties. We can get distracted in the hunt for "the true church," when we really need know God individually and personally. In our discussion, I thought I got Dataclarifier to agree with me, that the Church does not save, Jesus Christ alone can save. Both our own personal testimonies are that the church failed both of us miserably when we both were young, naive, impressionable, and most vulnerable. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 09:45, 5 November 2019 (EST)
This is not surprising. IMO it underscores the truth that God will hold each individual to account, and a person's relationship with God is personal, not based on communal ties. We can get distracted in the hunt for "the true church," when we really need know God individually and personally. In our discussion, I thought I got Dataclarifier to agree with me, that the Church does not save, Jesus Christ alone can save. Both our own personal testimonies are that the church failed both of us miserably when we both were young, naive, impressionable, and most vulnerable. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 09:45, 5 November 2019 (EST)
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::Dataclarifier, the Bible is clear that people are saved through faith. Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
::I do realize that true faith will have works, but ultimately it is through faith that one is saved.
::I think there is a lot of unnecessary friction on this page because you don't want to accept this matter.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:53, 4 November 2019 (EST)
:::Amother important concept is that "God is a fair judge" as per Psalm 7:11. Therefore, the unbaptised thief on the cross went to heaven (Jesus told the thief on the cross who repented that "Today you will see me in paradise"). I do think that an obedient Christian with a good attitude will want to get baptised, yet the notion that the thief on the cross did not go to heaven when Jesus clearly said He was going to heaven, is an unreasonable idea.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 10:59, 4 November 2019 (EST)
==More evidence those who are under grace are saved from wrath and judgement==
*John 1:12 ''As many as received him gave he power to become sons of God''
*Luke 11:11 ''Who among you if your child asks for a fish would give him a snake?''
Once we are adopted into God's family (Romans 8:15; this is the real meaning of "catholic" - those outside the covenants of Abraham) we are nolonger under God's wrath (Romans 5:9). We are saved by grace. This is the meaning of salvation by grace, we ''will not'' be repaid according to our works. Our works are as filthy rags.
Any other gospel that teaches that God's children, i.e. those adopted into his family, will be repaid according to their works, is no gospel at all. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:06, 5 November 2019 (EST)
:What happens if you shoot someone on Fifth Avenue? Asking for an orange friend. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 17:20, 5 November 2019 (EST)
::Well, if you're a child of God, I suppose the same thing would happen that happened to Moses who killed the Egyptian, David who who killed Uzziah, Jeffrey Dahmer who killed 17 gays, or O.J. Simpson who murdered his wife.
::Funny, ever think about that? Why did God choose two murderers, David and Moses, to write substantial portions of the Bible (Pentateuch, Psalms, much of Kings and Chronicles, etc)? Why did God choose two murderers to teach us about himself?
::''I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent''
::And I thank him and praise him every minute of every hour of every day for doing it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:43, 5 November 2019 (EST)
:::I'll spare you my full thoughts on Old Testament God's very stable genius. Seriously, though, are you arguing for:
:::# a kind of Calvinist "once saved, always saved", or
:::# do you actually believe it's possible to lose your golden ticket to Heaven through sufficiently wicked acts?
:::[[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 19:23, 5 November 2019 (EST)
::::Once saved, always saved. There was a time I was very skeptical of it, but Calvin convinced me. Anything else is a [[Gospel of Works]], rendering the work of Christ to no effect and making God a liar. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:32, 5 November 2019 (EST)
::::I think [[King Solomon]] is one of the best examples, although he probably died miserably and guilt ridden. OTOH, the spirit of God was taken from [[King Saul]], but that was before the ''spirit without measure'' was given. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:38, 5 November 2019 (EST)
:::::Thanks for a straightforward answer. [[User:JohnZ|JohnZ]] ([[User talk:JohnZ|talk]]) 21:03, 5 November 2019 (EST)
== This should be easy to resolve. ==
An easy way to resolve this matter is to have a pro-infant babtism section and an anti-infant baptism section.
Giving both perspectives is essentially what was done in the [[Petrine Primacy]] article to resolve the conflict.
Why isn't that being done in this article? It seems like such an easy way to resolve this matter.
It seems to me some diplomacy has to be shown by both sides.
I suggest reading these articles on conflict resolution skills and putting them into practice:
https://blog.hubspot.com/service/conflict-resolution-skills
https://www.eaglesflight.com/blog/top-5-skills-needed-to-successfully-resolve-conflicts-in-the-workplace
https://www.helpguide.org/articles/relationships-communication/conflict-resolution-skills.htm
I hope this helps. [[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 17:44, 5 November 2019 (EST)
All additional comments directly pertaining to the structure of the main article here and to the sources of information cited in it are welcome here.
:Yes and no. The real problem is [[Salvation]]. Look at that article. It's a mess. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
::It can be resolved. The [[Petrine Primacy]] article was resolved. If Wikipedia can have its Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, etc begin to create an informative article, there is no reason why Conservapedia can't do the same.
::It is just a matter of whether the parties geniunely want to resolve the matter.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 18:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
:::Well, looking at the Salvation article, the Intro right now is a big problem - and it's been that way for years evidently. It needs substantial revision. I'm not certain I'm the guy who should begin it (like Peter Strzok, because of my partisan bias). Any help you can give there to get it started would be appreciated. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 18:53, 5 November 2019 (EST)
::::I have zero time to work on any articles. I am not sure when I will be free again.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 20:40, 5 November 2019 (EST)