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Debate: Infant baptism (view source)
Revision as of 06:35, November 18, 2019
, 06:35, November 18, 2019→Discussion 107: Justification of the ungodly means remission of sins: who can be baptized?: added new section - Additional relevant debate copied from Talk:Infant baptism
::::::(ec)Let me go back to point (2) cause it ties in directly with much teaching on infant baptism. The premise as articulated is that, water baptism sprinkled over your forehead at birth or any age guarantees you a place in the afterlife, provided you don't blow it. Leaving aside a discussion of [[eternal security]] for now, let's focus on that vague promise that still is dependent on you and not the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Salvation begins the moment one is adopted into God's family - salvation from sin. And this is attested to throughout the entire scripture - beginning with the laws about cleansing the leper. Citations are too numerous to reiterate here (begin with Lev 23 if your interested). But the leper, those cast outside the camp or city wall and picking rags out the city dump at Gehenna, needed to present themselves to the priest for readmission into the body or congregation. The priest stood between them and the rest of the camp, between life and death. If the priest approved all their ritual cleansing, they were saved from fires of Gehenna and re-entered the family God. Christ now is our High Priest and advocate who admits us into eternal life and fellowship with God.
::::::(ec)Let me go back to point (2) cause it ties in directly with much teaching on infant baptism. The premise as articulated is that, water baptism sprinkled over your forehead at birth or any age guarantees you a place in the afterlife, provided you don't blow it. Leaving aside a discussion of [[eternal security]] for now, let's focus on that vague promise that still is dependent on you and not the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Salvation begins the moment one is adopted into God's family - salvation from sin. And this is attested to throughout the entire scripture - beginning with the laws about cleansing the leper. Citations are too numerous to reiterate here (begin with Lev 23 if your interested). But the leper, those cast outside the camp or city wall and picking rags out the city dump at Gehenna, needed to present themselves to the priest for readmission into the body or congregation. The priest stood between them and the rest of the camp, between life and death. If the priest approved all their ritual cleansing, they were saved from fires of Gehenna and re-entered the family God. Christ now is our High Priest and advocate who admits us into eternal life and fellowship with God.
::::::Oh, and thanks for your posting from ''Civitas Dei''. It's been many years and I enjoyed rereading those passages. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:03, 9 November 2019 (EST)
::::::Oh, and thanks for your posting from ''Civitas Dei''. It's been many years and I enjoyed rereading those passages. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:03, 9 November 2019 (EST)
==Additional relevant debate copied from [[Talk:Infant baptism]]==
== "Here I stand, I can do no more" — Sola scriptura response from the whole context of the Bible ==
===There you stand — Sola scriptura response from the whole context of the Bible (''this is no spam'') — Bible scriptures opposed by all who reject Regenerative Baptism, Infant baptism, and the authority of the Catholic Church: ===
*Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "regenerated" '''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'' interlinear text] <br>from [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080 '''γεννάω''' ''gennao'' "procreate, regenerate"].[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]
*He who believes and is baptized will be '''saved'''; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
*Baptism '''saves''' you now. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Peter%203%3A21 1 Peter 3:21]
*This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A6 1 John 5:6]
*There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A8 1 John 5:8]
*Jesus '''saves''' us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Titus%203%3A5 Titus 3:5]
*Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 Matthew 28:19]
::*This verse only applies to those who are ''born of God'' (or adopted inton his family); sorry, it doesn't apply to you which nullifies the rest of your argument. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
*With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews%2010%3A22 Hebrews 10:22]
*The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%205%3A26 Ephesians 5:26]
::*This verse refutes your entire doctrine. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
*Be baptized, and wash away your sins. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%2022%3A16 Acts 22:16]
*Be baptized. The promise of '''salvation''' is to you and to your children. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A38 Acts 2:38] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A39 and 2:39]
*Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A16 Luke 18:16]
::*This verse has nothing to do with baptism in any context. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
*Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A17 Luke 18:17]
::*Where's your faith of a child? You replace it with doctrines of men. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
*Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
*God is not willing that any should perish. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Peter%203%3A9 2 Peter 3:9]
::*Take this one to heart - it also speaks directly to those who preach a gospel of wrath and anathema. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
*We are buried with Christ '''in baptism''', in which we are raised again through faith in '''the working of God, God making us alive together with him'''. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%202%3A12 Colossians 2:12] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%2012%3A13 and 2:13]
*To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2021%3A6 Revelation 21:6]
::*Hmmm, physical water or spiritual water? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
*A fountain springing up to eternal life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%204%3A14 John 4:14]
::*Yah, the Word within you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
*For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%2012%3A3 1 Corinthians 12:13]
::*Oh, so spirits chug down H<sub>2</sub>O. Didn't know that. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
*For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Galatians%2012%3A3 Galatians 3:27]
*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.] Ephesians 4:5-6.
::*And one gospel - a gospel of grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.] Romans 6:3-4.
::*Yep. Once you are ''born again''. You don't need to be physically baptized. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
*even when we were '''dead''' through our trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by '''grace''' you have been '''saved'''). [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%202%3A5 Ephesians 2:5]. <br> ([[Grace]] '''χάριτί''' ''[[charism|charity]]'' the "gift" bestowed by God on man is not a synonym for the [[faith]] '''πίστεως''' ''pisteos'' of man toward God. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians+2%3A8-10&version=KJV See Ephesians 2:8-10]. Compare <br> [http://biblehub.com/greek/5485 grace '''χάρις''' ''charis'' "grace, graciousness, especially the divine influence on the heart" given by God] and <br> [http://biblehub.com/greek/4102 faith '''ριστις''' ''pistis'' "persuasion, credence, conviction of truth, reliance on Christ for '''salvation''', expressed by man.])
:::*Grace is not given by baptism. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
*And such were some of you. But you were '''washed''', you were '''sanctified''', you were '''justified''' in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%206%3A11 1 Corinthians 6:11] "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 Matthew 28:19].
*one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A5 Ephesians 4:5]–[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A6 6].
:*I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:18-19
:::*It means nothing if you reject God's grace for a doctrine of law and wrath. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Hebrews 13:17
:*Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Acts 20:28
:*And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16 <br>(''The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in 1 Corinthians 12:27-38''.)
:::*''speaking the truth in love'' is key here; a gospel of wrath does not speak the truth in love. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
:*Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-38 <br>(''The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in Ephesians 4:11-16''.)
:::*Right. Get baptized in the spirit and this will apply. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*I commend you because you remember me in everything and '''maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.''' 1 Corinthians 11:2
:*So then, brethren, '''stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word or by letter.''' 2 Thessalonians 2:15
::*Wow! Where is the word "baptism" or "water baptism" in this verse? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
:::*Yep. Let's begin - ''That which is flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit. God is a spirit....These '''words''' that I speak unto you, they are '''spirit''', and they are '''life'''''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*And account the forbearance of our Lord as '''salvation'''. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of [[Antinomianism|lawless]] men and lose your own stability. 2 Peter 3:15-17
:::*It's clear what you are trying to say here. Go ahead, blame the Catholic Epistles of Paul for Protestantism. But who is ''rightly dividing the word of truth'' when Jesus (not Paul) said, ''That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit''. You yourself claim Catholic doctrine teaches that '''baptism is not of the flesh'''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Timothy 2:1-2 <br> (''often cited by many Churches as support for [[apostolic succession]]'')
:*I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6
:::*''Clean by the word''. Hmmm. It doesn't say "clean by baptism" or "clean by water." Kinda shoots holes in your whole argument. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are [[Schism|factious]] and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:6-11
:::*Go back and learn about grace and salvation '''before''' you preach on baptism. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*You see that a man is '''justified''' by '''works''' and '''not by faith alone.''' James 2:24
:::*''justified''. Justification is neither grace nor salvation. It comes as a result of salvation and obtaining God's grace. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit [[apostasy]], since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6
:::*Taste of the Lord and see that he is good''. Your entire rendition of scripture appears to be that you have yet to taste of the Lord. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Matthew 12:30-31
:::*Yep. And a gospel of wrath comes awfully close to blasphemy. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 John 5:16-17
:::*Like so many other verses you cite, if you are not baptized in the spirit, this verse is meaningless. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will '''save''' his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
:::*So, what is the difference between soul and spirit? And which is saved? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. '''When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth;''' for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16:12-14
:::*Yep. And the Spirit of truth comes when you are ''born of the spirit''. That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit. Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*And I will pray the Father, and he will give you '''another Counselor''', to be with you '''for ever''', even '''the Spirit of truth''', whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. John 14:16-17
:::*Now you are actually speaking of baptism. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, '''I am with you always, ''even'' unto the end of the world. Amen.''' Matthew 28:19-20
:::*See above. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
:::*So again, tell me the difference between soul and spirit. James spoke about saving a soul. Jesus spoke of being born of the spirit. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
:::*''[https://biblehub.com/daniel/4-17.htm the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. (Daniel 4:17)]. Is this the Catholic curia you're speaking of? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. 1 Peter 2:13
:*So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22
:*if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
:*Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:18-29
:::*How many years do I have to serve in [[Purgatory]] cause the work of Christ is insufficient to purge me of my sins? This is the doctrine of Antichrist. ''By their fruits ye shall know them''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; '''and if he refuses to listen even to the Church,''' let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:15-19
:::*Where do I begin with this one (which you quote so often)? How about this snippet: a tax collector is a collaborator with Roman authorities whom you are commanded to be subjection to. I think you are not ''rightly dividing the word of truth'' by not delivering proper context. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 John 9-11
:::*Amen. The Gospel of Grace, not the gospel of wrath. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*As for a man who is [[Schism|factious]], after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. Titus 3:10-11
:::*Jesus seems to have gone the extra mile for sinners. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, '''reject authority''', and revile the glorious ones. Jude 8
:*These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage. Jude 16
:*Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A47 John 12:47][https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A48 12:48]
:::*Ok, now you are finally get nearer to the Gospel of Grace and the meaning of salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%208%3A47 John 8:47]<br>''Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism '''saves''' us now, by water and the blood.''—this is the word of God.
:::*Hmmm. I cited Romans 10:9 at the top of this page; how come it is not the article yet? Perhaps you didn't hear the word of God? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Corinthians%2013%3A2 2 Corinthians 13:2]
:::*More wrath. Any grace in your preaching? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*There is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
:::*Wow. A promise to send me to hell if I resist your teaching. Thanks. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:*He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2013%3A13 Proverbs 13:13] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2028%3A9 and 28:9]
:::*Nuff said. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
*This is so tragic to witness, on the one hand a blessing is promised to those who hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matt 5:6), while on the hand Brother Dataclarifer is being so hard hearted and stiff-necked preaching wrath as a way to salvation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 15:33, 7 November 2019 (EST)
====Bring forth the scriptures that say "baptism cannot save"====
*Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "baptism does not '''save''', baptism cannot '''save'''". <br>Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "the Church does not '''save''', the Church cannot '''save'''", or that "membership in the Church does not '''save'''". <br>Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "membership in the Church eternally assures '''salvation'''" (which Catholic doctrine also rejects). <br>Bring forth here on this page ''Chapter and verse, with words "church", "membership", "baptism" (cannot, does not) "'''save'''", "'''salvation'''"''. <br>Show the Bible passage that explicitly says in any form "''born again by faith.''" <br> You can't. I know, because I looked, and tried to find it. "Baptism cannot save"—"The church cannot save"—"Born again by faith alone" (''babies who die have no faith''). It can't be found. It's not in the Bible. And if it's not in the Bible, the principle of ''sola scriptura'' refutes it totally. <br>So '''if you believe in salvation by faith alone you don't believe the Bible.''' It's as simple as that. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)<br>By the way — The Catholic Church ''does teach'' that the Church saves. CCC '''849''' "''The missionary mandate.'' “Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be '''‘the universal sacrament of salvation,’ the Church,''' in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men.” [''AG 7''; cf. ''Heb'' 11:6; ''1 Cor'' 9:6] (<small>''AG'' is the Vatican II document ''Ad Gentes''</small>) --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:You have clearly demonstrated repeatedly that you do not believe the Bible, because like the original [[Anabaptists]] you refuse to believe the whole context of all the scriptures cited here above and used by Protestants and Orthodox and Catholics against them to no avail. If you chop up this one as you did before and contradict even one of these Bible passages, you will prove your opposition to the Bible and [[enmity]] to the truth. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" John 17:17. <br> You will not hear from me again. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)
::Really? The bible says ''Blessed his he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.''<ref>https://biblehub.com/psalms/137-9.htm</ref> Do you believe that? Better yet, are you going to act on your faith and practice it? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:36, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:::Dataclarifier, this is a very unreasonable request. I showed you Ephesians 2:8-9 which explicitly states that one is saved by faith and not by works (and I added that the Book of James says that true faith will have works).
:::Now in desperation you say: Bring forth the scriptures that say "baptism cannot save".
:::This is like saying bring forth the Scriptures that say singing songs at church cannot save. Bring forth the Scriptures that say a women having long hair cannot save. Show me the Scriptures that say praying consistently cannot save. This is not a reasonable approach to formulating sound doctrine. Formulating sound doctrine is best formed by using relevant verses that provide the most clarity and using proper [[Bible exegesis]]. [[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 21:45, 9 November 2019 (EST)
::Dataclarifier, Define [[El Shaddai]], and refute that babies have no faith. Or that ''the faith of child'' is not necessary to be saved. Or that ''the faith of Abraham'' is not necessary for salvation.
::Hint: When an infant opens its arms to recieve its mother's breast it is displaying faith. Faith is neither an intellectual exercise nor a 'work' to be performed. It is the simple trust of a child in a parent. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup>
{{reflist}}
:::"Simple trust of a child in a parent" is not the conscious awareness and repentance of sin and faith in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior you teach as necessary for salvation (Romans 10:9-10). '''Your doctrine that salvation is only by faith alone, a saving faith in Christ, a faith that you say the newborn infant and baby does not have''' and '''cannot confess with their lips unto salvation''', the absence of which ''ipso facto'' '''condemns them to eternal torment in the lake of fire because they do not believe with faith in confessing with their lips Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior because "he who does not believe will be condemned"''' (Mark 16:16), and '''condemns them to eternal torment simply because they are incapable of confessing Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior'''. <br>Your doctrine of salvation by faith alone in the Lord condemns to wrath all babies who have no faith in the Lord Jesus Christ when they die, and all sinners who never heard the Gospel and do not believe, and all grown persons mentally incompetent to understand anything and do not believe, and therefore teaches that God is willing that all such souls perish simply because they do not have faith in Jesus Christ. In contradiction of this doctrine, the ''biblical doctrine'' proclaims that unless one is born again by water and the Spirit one cannot enter the kingdom of God, and that baptism now saves us "while we were helpless" by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal by the Spirit and saves helpless babies and sinners who are incompetent to understand what salvation and faith and sin are, because God is not willing that any should perish. And that is why Jesus commanded to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" to "wash away your sins" and make "a new creature" who is able to come to faith in the Lord and "partake of the divine nature", and why whole households including children were baptized during the first centuries of Christianity. That biblical doctrine is also the doctrine of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church and all the Protestant churches that baptize infants for salvation.
:::No. You preach wrath on all who do not (and cannot) confess with faith that Jesus Christ is their own personal Lord and Savior and be justified by faith alone, which excludes from salvation by faith alone all newborn babies who die and all who have no opportunity to believe and have faith in him simply because they are unable. <br>The Catholic Church preaches the biblical doctrine of mercy by water baptism of all who are helpless "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", including babies, and mercy to those who wished for water baptism but died before being baptized with water and the Spirit, and mercy to those who would have accepted Christian baptism if they had only known that Jesus said, "Except one be born again by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God." Baptism ''ex opere operato'' now saves by the washing of water with the word of prayer. God is merciful to all who are helpless and are brought to him. You damn to the lake of fire all who die without being able to confess with their lips faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.
:::You object that I condemn you for your faith. I condemn a defective and false faith, as did all of Protestantism, Orthodoxy and Catholicism in the 16th century, a faith that they all with one accord condemned as an antichrist doctrine contradicting the Bible itself, the '''''credobaptist doctrine of salvation by faith alone''''' to be believed and confessed before participating in the performance of a testimonial symbolic baptism which excludes from salvation all newborns, infants, babies and children in arms who die, simply because they do not believe and do not confess with their lips unto salvation that Jesus Christ died for them as their own personal Lord and Savior and teaches that when they die without believing and confessing this faith alone they are condemned to suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire and have no rest by day or by night.
:::No one believes in [[Bible|God's word]] as long as they reject the plain and simple-to-understand list of clear biblical passages requiring salvation by water baptism and the Spirit. {{unsigned}}
::::You're just rambling on now and not making any sense. Abraham did not confess Jesus with his lips. Neither did Moses. Abraham and Moses must be hell, huh? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 05:46, 17 November 2019 (EST)
::::In your alternative universe, we are commanded to have the faith of Abraham - which landed him in hell anyways. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 06:33, 17 November 2019 (EST)
::::Your whole doctrine can be boiled down to this - The sacrifice of God's own Son is not enough to save you. Your blood is still upon your own head. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 06:49, 17 November 2019 (EST)
::::You misrepresent facts - I never said babies cannot or do not have faith. I said the exact opposite. A child at its mother's breast has faith and love toward its parent, that the parent will love and nurture it. It is this faith that saves the child, and it is that faith of a child that you must have to be adopted into God's family, i.e. "saved". That fact also refers to life in the flesh. Salvation is now, not contingent upon death. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 06:56, 17 November 2019 (EST)
:::::''By wisdom they knew not God'' - once again your ramblings prove the truth of God's word. Faith is all that's necessary, not your so-called "wisdom" in your endless ramblings. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 07:00, 17 November 2019 (EST)
:::::''These words I speak unto you - they are spirit, and they are life.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 07:11, 17 November 2019 (EST)
::::::Your own words, near top of this page:
::::::'''The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin. ....<br>And I should have included this part up front: remainder of Romans 10:9-10, "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. In all three examples above the "I will" part came out of the mouth.'''
::::::Please explain to our readers how an infant is capable of this requirement of salvation "''required for salvation''" which you yourself have defined as '''''necessary to be saved'''''. According to the Bible, all who are not saved are damned to the eternal torment of the lake of fire. You '''''require''''' "''metanoia''" of a newborn infant who has died, to already have, before death (and after death the judgment), to have before death "''a change of heart and change of mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin''"—you said "''The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin.''" If this is required to be saved, if the "I will" part comes out of the mouth, please explain to our readers how an infant who does not know how to speak is capable of this requirement of "''metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin.''". You made no exception. Your "requirement" ''ipso facto'' mercilessly condemns them to hell, and afterward to the lake of fire, simply because they can't do what you insist is the absolute "'''requirement of salvation'''" from the wrath of God. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 12:15, 17 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::''Strong meat belongeth to those who are of full age''. Unfortunately, you are neither feeding on, nor preaching, ''the milk of the gospel''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:19, 17 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::And now explain—according to the requirement of a ''metanoic'' change of heart and change of mind—how the milk of the gospel of salvation is given to newborns and infants who cannot understand speech or comprehend what is preached and tragically happen to die before they can. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 17:13, 17 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::By faith. Psalm 82 says, ''Ye are gods''. A parent stands in the place of God. A nursing infant has ''the faith of a child.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:51, 17 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::You said "''The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin.''" Ask a newborn what it thinks of God, sin, and what God says about sin. Please explain how an infant who does not know how to speak or understand what is good or bad is capable of this conscious choice of fulfilling what you say is the requirement of "''metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin.''". --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:06, 17 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::Let's look at several passages from John, mostly chapter 10:
:::::::::::*''these words I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life''
:::::::::::*''My sheep hear My voice;''
:::::::::::*''I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice.'' (this refers to the gentile church as fully articulated in the Catholic Epistles of Paul).
:::::::::::*''No one can snatch them out of My hand.'' ("''No one"'', presumably not even the sinner).
:::::::::::*''“Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—'' (refer back to earlier discussion on John 1:27, ''No man hath seen God at anytime'', and Exodus 33:11, ''The Lord spoke to Moses face to face'')
:::::::::::*''then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world?'' (also in John is ''the word became flesh'').
:::::::::::This obviously is only a partial discussion. But to refute or dispute any of this, you have to ''compare spiritual with spiritual''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 18:24, 17 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::You said, "''Salvation is by grace. You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or see the Kingdom of God). It's pretty simple. It's not rocket science. God never intended it to be a scholarly exercise. It's gotta be simple enough for a child to understand.''"<br>No newborn infant is capable of this understanding if the infant dies shortly after birth. <br> You said, "''You must have the '''mind of Christ''', without which no man can see God (or see the Kingdom of God). . . . It's gotta be '''simple enough for a child to understand'''.''" <br> According to your own doctrine, in your own words, "''You '''must''' have the mind of Christ, '''without which no man can see God''' (or see the Kingdom of God)''" <br>A helpless newborn infant, baby, child in arms that cannot walk or understand the mind of Christ "'''''without which no man can see God'''''" (according to your own words) does not have cognitive ability to understand the gospel '''simple enough for a child to understand''', does not "have the mind of Christ", cannot "confess with the lips" (Romans 10:9), and therefore cannot fulfill your requirement for salvation, <br>"''what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin.''" <br>'''Your doctrine requires this to be saved'''. <br> A newborn baby and infant, a child in arms, is utterly incapable of being able to fulfill what you yourself say is "''required for salvation. . .repentance - a change of heart and '''change of mind'''. A change of heart and mind in'' [the infant's] ''attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin.''" A newborn infant who dies shortly after birth is incapable of "changing its mind" of "changing its heart" or understanding anything intelligent before it dies. According to "what is required for salvation", that is, the requirement of your own doctrine, this newborn who died did not fulfill the "requirement for salvation...metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin."<br> ''Mainstream Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic doctrine instead, more mercifully based on the authority of the Bible itself according to the very Word of God ("''baptism saves you now''"), faithfully baptizes helpless infants "''while we were yet helpless''" for their salvation, because Jesus himself says, "''Except one be regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God''", and "''by the washing of water with the word''" saves them "''in virtue of his own mercy, by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we may be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." '''John 3:5; Ephesians 5:25-27; Titus 3:5'''.<small>(''Baptism of desire and Baptism of blood are covered in the main article.'')--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:28, 17 November 2019 (EST)</small>
:::::::::::::Then explain these two verses:
:::::::::::::*''the faith of a child'', and
:::::::::::::*''Ye are gods''
:::::::::::::[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:21, 17 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::::Not necessary. A newborn infant is incapable of '''your requirement:''' A helpless newborn infant, baby, child in arms that cannot walk or understand the mind of Christ "'''''without which no man can see God'''''" (according to '''your own words''') does not have cognitive ability to understand the gospel '''simple enough for a child to understand''', does not "have the mind of Christ", cannot "confess with the lips" (Romans 10:9), and therefore cannot fulfill '''your requirement for salvation''', <br>"''what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin.''" <br>'''Your doctrine requires this to be saved'''. <br> A newborn baby and infant, a child in arms, is utterly incapable of being able to fulfill '''what you yourself say''' is "''required for salvation. . .repentance - a change of heart and '''change of mind'''. A change of heart and mind in'' [the infant's] ''attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin.''" --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 20:28, 17 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::''Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—'' 1 Peter 2:2
:::::::::::::::says nothing of water baptism What your doctrine is distinctly lacking is, ''a desire for pure spiritual milk''. Your doctrine is grounded and focused on condemnation - the threat of hell (which of course, ''is no gospel at all''). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:36, 17 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::(A) You can't tell me what salvation is.
:::::::::::::::(B) You can't tell me how to find salvation.
:::::::::::::::(C) All you preach is condemnation, wrath, and judgement - ''which is no gospel at all''. And you base it on ''the doctrines of men''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:42, 17 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::Illustration: "A helpless newborn infant, baby, child in arms that cannot walk or understand the mind of Christ "without which no man can see God" does not have cognitive ability to understand." Revert back to the scripture, quoted twice now:
:::::::::::::::''the world by wisdom knew not God''.
:::::::::::::::The Bible specifically says you cannot know God by your cognitive abilities. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:56, 17 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::::And if you think that sounds crazy, you are just exercising Pride - the original sin. ''God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.'' ''Ye must become as little children.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 20:59, 17 November 2019 (EST)
::Praise God! You're getting baptized in the Spirit now! Today, if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts... [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 21:06, 17 November 2019 (EST)
==Cruel doctrine==
A newborn infant cannot fulfill '''your requirement for salvation''' according to '''your own words''', <br> <big>"what is '''required for salvation'''. The answer is '''metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin'''."</big> <br> Your requirement of ''metanoia'' with ''a change of mind and heart'' and a '''conscious understanding''' of all these things "'''so simple a child can understand'''" condemns to hell and the lake of fire every uncomprehending baby that cannot understand and has died within an hour of birth, simply because it had no personal conscious faith in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior and did not understand and come to "'''''metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin'''''"—''what you say (in your own words) "is '''required for salvation'''"''. <br> The Catholic Church condemns such a monstrous doctrine of cruelty, the legalistic requiring of a helpless newborn what the child is utterly incompetent to do and cannot fulfill, and by holding to a false doctrine condemned as "antichrist" '''deliberately depriving them of the salvation of their souls by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit when they are infants and most at risk of death'''. <br>Whenever possible, since the first century, the Christian Church east and west baptizes by regeneration through water baptism all infants brought to the "laver of regeneration" because they were conceived in the original sin of Adam, since in Adam '''all die''', and '''death passed to all''', since '''all have sinned''', and there is '''none righteous, no not one'''. Infants are baptized by water and the Spirit '''''without your requirement of conscious understanding and metanoia and a change of heart and mind in their attitude toward God, sin and what God says about sin'''''. The Church freely baptizes the uncomprehending infant for salvation unto justification, freely, as an act of mercy commanded by the Lord himself (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:16) precisely '''because''' newborn infants and babies have no capacity for '''what you have said is required for salvation''', and simply because at this time in their lives they cannot personally resist or place any personal obstacle in the way of the grace of the sacrament "poured out upon" them. <br>In stark contrast to '''your requirement of metanoia, a change of mind and a change of heart in the newborn's attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin''', in stark contrast to that requirement, all the Church really requires is the simple act of "''the washing of water with the word''", which ''ex opere operato'' in the very doing of the act ordained by Christ saves them "''in virtue of his own mercy, by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we may be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life''" '''because Jesus himself said,''' "''Except one be regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God''". '''Ephesians 5:25-27; Titus 3:5; John 3:5'''. <br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:06, 18 November 2019 (EST)
:''They do in their heart alway err, and have not known my ways''
:''My sheep hear my voice''.
:[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 00:15, 18 November 2019 (EST)
Amen'''!''' If you won't hear the Bible, there is no hope for you. {{unsigned|User:Dataclarifier}}
:Again, condemnation. That's all you preach. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 01:22, 18 November 2019 (EST)
I've posted the word of God, below:
;Authoritative scripture
*He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2013%3A13 Proverbs 13:13] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2028%3A9 and 28:9]
*Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "regenerated" '''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'' interlinear text] <br>from [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080 '''γεννάω''' ''gennao'' "procreate, regenerate"].[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]
*He who believes and is baptized will be '''saved'''; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
*Baptism '''saves''' you now. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Peter%203%3A21 1 Peter 3:21]
*This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A6 1 John 5:6]
*There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A8 1 John 5:8]
*Jesus '''saves''' us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Titus%203%3A5 Titus 3:5]
*Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 Matthew 28:19]
*With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews%2010%3A22 Hebrews 10:22]
*The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%205%3A26 Ephesians 5:26]
*Be baptized, and wash away your sins. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%2022%3A16 Acts 22:16]
*Be baptized. The promise of '''salvation''' is to you and to your children. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A38 Acts 2:38] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A39 and 2:39]
*Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A16 Luke 18:16]
*Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A17 Luke 18:17]
*Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
*God is not willing that any should perish. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Peter%203%3A9 2 Peter 3:9]
*We are buried with Christ '''in baptism''', in which we are raised again through faith in '''the working of God, God making us alive together with him'''. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%202%3A12 Colossians 2:12] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%2012%3A13 and 2:13]
*To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2021%3A6 Revelation 21:6]
*A fountain springing up to eternal life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%204%3A14 John 4:14]
*For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%2012%3A3 1 Corinthians 12:13]
*For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Galatians%2012%3A3 Galatians 3:27]
*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.] Ephesians 4:5-6.
*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.] Romans 6:3-4.
*even when we were '''dead''' through our trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by '''grace''' you have been '''saved'''). [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%202%3A5 Ephesians 2:5]. <br> ([[Grace]] '''χάριτί''' ''[[charism|charity]]'' the "gift" bestowed by God on man is not a synonym for the [[faith]] '''πίστεως''' ''pisteos'' of man toward God. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians+2%3A8-10&version=KJV See Ephesians 2:8-10]. Compare <br> [http://biblehub.com/greek/5485 grace '''χάρις''' ''charis'' "grace, graciousness, especially the divine influence on the heart" given by God] and <br> [http://biblehub.com/greek/4102 faith '''ριστις''' ''pistis'' "persuasion, credence, conviction of truth, reliance on Christ for '''salvation''', expressed by man.])
*And such were some of you. But you were '''washed''', you were '''sanctified''', you were '''justified''' in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%206%3A11 1 Corinthians 6:11] "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 Matthew 28:19].
*one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A5 Ephesians 4:5]–[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A6 6].
:Any preaching on salvation that ignores these verses is a good example of [[Cafeteria Christianity]] and of[[confirmation bias]].
;The Body of Christ, the Savior of the world
*Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." John 20:21
*And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14
*I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:18-19
*Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Hebrews 13:17
*Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Acts 20:28
*And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16 <br>(''The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in 1 Corinthians 12:27-38''.)
*For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
*Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-38 <br>(''The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in Ephesians 4:11-16''.)
*I commend you because you remember me in everything and '''maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.''' 1 Corinthians 11:2
*So then, brethren, '''stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word or by letter.''' 2 Thessalonians 2:15
*Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
*And account the forbearance of our Lord as '''salvation'''. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of [[Antinomianism|lawless]] men and lose your own stability. 2 Peter 3:15-17
*You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Timothy 2:1-2 <br> (''often cited by many Churches as support for [[apostolic succession]]'')
*I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6
*For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are [[Schism|factious]] and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:6-11
*You see that a man is '''justified''' by '''works''' and '''not by faith alone.''' James 2:24
*For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit [[apostasy]], since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6
*He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Matthew 12:30-31
*If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 John 5:16-17
*My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will '''save''' his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
*I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. '''When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth;''' for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16:12-14
*And I will pray the Father, and he will give you '''another Counselor''', to be with you '''for ever''', even '''the Spirit of truth''', whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. John 14:16-17
*Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, '''I am with you always, ''even'' unto the end of the world. Amen.''' Matthew 28:19-20
*Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
*For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
*Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. 1 Peter 2:13
*So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22
*know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
*Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:18-29
*If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; '''and if he refuses to listen even to the Church,''' let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:15-19
===Authority===
*There is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
*He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2013%3A13 Proverbs 13:13] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2028%3A9 and 28:9]
*Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 John 9-11
*As for a man who is [[Schism|factious]], after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. Titus 3:10-11
*Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, '''reject authority''', and revile the glorious ones. Jude 8
*These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage. Jude 16
;Rejection of the Word of God
*Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A47 John 12:47][https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A48 12:48]
*He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%208%3A47 John 8:47]<br>''Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism '''saves''' us now, by water and the blood.''—this is the word of God.
*I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Corinthians%2013%3A2 2 Corinthians 13:2]
*He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2013%3A13 Proverbs 13:13] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2028%3A9 and 28:9] <br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:45, 18 November 2019 (EST)
:''Hearing, they hear not; seeing, they see not.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 01:22, 18 November 2019 (EST)