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Debate: Infant baptism (view source)
Revision as of 06:52, November 7, 2019
, 06:52, November 7, 2019copied to this page the additional debate at Talk:Infant baptism
It's pretty clear those who are saved by grace and have the mind of Christ will not be repaid according to their works. The Law is for those who are not under grace. Any other gospel is no gospel at all. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:31, 6 November 2019 (EST)
It's pretty clear those who are saved by grace and have the mind of Christ will not be repaid according to their works. The Law is for those who are not under grace. Any other gospel is no gospel at all. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:31, 6 November 2019 (EST)
==Faith of child==
El Shaddai, a name of God, is taken from ''Shad'', Hebrew for a woman's breast. It's full meaning is something like ''The All Bountiful One'' or ''All Sufficient One'', usually translated ''God Almighty''.
While nobody really knows what's going on in an infant newborn's mind, I'm assuming the infant ''has faith'' that mommie is going to feed him/her/he/she/it. I'm not saying this is doctrinal, I'm just sayin' based on my own wisdom, learning, and understanding I've come to think this is probably the case. Psalm 82, incidentally, basically says parents stand in the place of God toward their children. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 21:18, 6 November 2019 (EST)
:Now, for good measure, I'm going to throw in Hebrews 5:12:
::''For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
:So now, there is no difference between a PhD in Theology who uses the milk of the word and a helpless baby. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 21:34, 6 November 2019 (EST)
:::"''parents stand in the place of God toward their children''" Yes. They save their children by baptism. Just as Paul said Timothy saved those entrusted to him. And James said those who bring back someone from the error of their way save them. And the Church teaches the same, that the faith of the parents and of Mother Church stand in for the faith of the newborn child "while we were helpless" when the child is baptized. The Bible never says that infants were not baptized. Or that the children of believers were not baptized before they came to personal faith in Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, it is still Jesus Christ and his saving blood poured out in the washing of the water of baptism with the word "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" for the salvation of all who are born again by water and the Spirit who baptizes ''ex opere operato'' in sacramental water baptism with the word "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". <br>'''Your doctrine that salvation is only by faith alone''', a saving faith in Christ, a '''faith that you say the newborn infant and baby does not have''' and '''cannot confess with their lips unto salvation''', the absence of which ''ipso facto'' '''condemns them to eternal torment in the lake of fire because they do not believe with faith in confessing Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior because "he who does not believe will be condemned"''' (Mk 16:16), and condemns them to eternal torment simply because they are incapable of confessing Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. <br>But while your doctrine of salvation by faith alone in the Lord condemns all babies who have no faith in the Lord when they die and all sinners who never heard the Gospel and do not believe and all grown persons mentally incompetent to understand anything and do not believe and therefore that God is willing that all such souls perish simply because they do not have faith in Jesus Christ, the ''biblical doctrine'' that unless one is born again by water and the Spirit one cannot enter the kingdom of God, and that baptism now saves us "while we were helpless" by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal by the Spirit and saves helpless babies and sinners who are incompetent to understand what salvation and faith and sin are, because God is not willing that any should perish. And that is why Jesus commanded to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" to "wash away your sins" and make "a new creature" who is able to come to faith in the Lord and "partake of the divine nature", and why whole households including children were baptized during the first centuries of Christianity. That biblical doctrine is also the doctrine of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church and all the Protestant churches that baptize infants for salvation. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:07, 7 November 2019 (EST)
::::You just don't get it, do ya? You're just preaching wrath. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 00:12, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:::::No. You preach wrath on all who do not (and cannot) confess with faith that Jesus Christ is their own personal Lord and Savior and be justified by faith alone, which excludes from salvation by faith alone all newborn babies who die and all who have no opportunity to believe and have faith in him simply because they are unable. <br>The Catholic Church preaches the biblical doctrine of mercy by water baptism of all who are helpless "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", including babies, and mercy to those who wished for water baptism but died before being baptized with water and the Spirit, and mercy to those who would have accepted Christian baptism if they had only known that Jesus said, "Except one be born again by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God." Baptism ''ex opere operato'' now saves by the washing of water with the word of prayer. God is merciful to all who are helpless and are brought to him. You damn to the lake of fire all who die without being able to confess Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 00:32, 7 November 2019 (EST)
::::::You're being a little redundant now. I don't think God or man is hearing you for your much speaking.
::::::Secondly, please stop being so condemning of me. I'm just acting on my faith. (Clarification: when I use the phrase "my faith", I am referring to my personal belief in and trust of God and God's word. I am not referring to any membership or association with an organized church or organized church doctrine). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 00:44, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::I condemn a defective and false faith, as did all of Protestantism, Orthodoxy and Catholicism in the 16th century, a faith that they all condemned as an antichrist doctrine contradicting the Bible itself, the '''''credobaptist doctrine of salvation by faith alone''''' to be believed and confessed before participating in the performance of a testimonial symbolic baptism which excludes from salvation all newborns, infants, babies and children in arms who die simply because they do not believe and do not confess with their lips unto salvation that Jesus Christ died for them as their own personal Lord and Savior and teaches that when they die without believing and confessing this faith alone they are condemned to suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire and have no rest by day or by night. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:52, 7 November 2019 (EST)