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Debate: Infant baptism (view source)
Revision as of 18:44, November 7, 2019
, 18:44, November 7, 2019copied to this page the additional debate at Talk:Infant baptism - although I won't be participating I will once a month check the debate at Talk:Infant baptism and copy the additional comments there to this page
::::::Secondly, please stop being so condemning of me. I'm just acting on my faith. (Clarification: when I use the phrase "my faith", I am referring to my personal belief in and trust of God and God's word. I am not referring to any membership or association with an organized church or organized church doctrine). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 00:44, 7 November 2019 (EST)
::::::Secondly, please stop being so condemning of me. I'm just acting on my faith. (Clarification: when I use the phrase "my faith", I am referring to my personal belief in and trust of God and God's word. I am not referring to any membership or association with an organized church or organized church doctrine). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 00:44, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::I condemn a defective and false faith, as did all of Protestantism, Orthodoxy and Catholicism in the 16th century, a faith that they all condemned as an antichrist doctrine contradicting the Bible itself, the '''''credobaptist doctrine of salvation by faith alone''''' to be believed and confessed before participating in the performance of a testimonial symbolic baptism which excludes from salvation all newborns, infants, babies and children in arms who die simply because they do not believe and do not confess with their lips unto salvation that Jesus Christ died for them as their own personal Lord and Savior and teaches that when they die without believing and confessing this faith alone they are condemned to suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire and have no rest by day or by night. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:52, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:::::::I condemn a defective and false faith, as did all of Protestantism, Orthodoxy and Catholicism in the 16th century, a faith that they all condemned as an antichrist doctrine contradicting the Bible itself, the '''''credobaptist doctrine of salvation by faith alone''''' to be believed and confessed before participating in the performance of a testimonial symbolic baptism which excludes from salvation all newborns, infants, babies and children in arms who die, simply because they do not believe and do not confess with their lips unto salvation that Jesus Christ died for them as their own personal Lord and Savior and teaches that when they die without believing and confessing this faith alone they are condemned to suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire and have no rest by day or by night. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 01:50, 7 November 2019 (EST)
::::::Why would "newborns, infants, babies and children in arms" suffer the second death? Presumably they didn't sin mortally, did they? [[User:VargasMilan|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan|talk]]) Thursday, 09:22, 7 November 2019 (EST)
::::::Why would "newborns, infants, babies and children in arms" suffer the second death? Presumably they didn't sin mortally, did they? [[User:VargasMilan|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan|talk]]) Thursday, 09:22, 7 November 2019 (EST)
::::::::No one believes in [[Bible|God's word]] as long as they reject this [[Talk:Infant baptism/Archive 01#Regenerative salvation by water and the Spirit: water baptism saves|plain and simple-to-understand list of clear biblical passages requiring salvation by water baptism and the Spirit.]] --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 02:13, 7 November 2019 (EST)<br>Show the list to any eight-year-old who has had no Bible training and no exposure to introductory theology and ask her and him what they see and what the words simply mean.
::::::::::Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5<br>Baptism saves you now. 1 Peter 3:21<br>Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19 '''. . .''' <br>'''''. . . '''and so on all the way to the end of the list''.<br>--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 02:22, 7 November 2019 (EST)
The thief on the cross who repented was not water baptised, yet Jesus said to him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." At the same time, I do think people should get baptised AFTER they become a Christian.
Dataclarifier, I believe in the God's word. So you are entirely incorrect in your statement.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 02:25, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:You don't believe in God's word, and I am correct in my statement. You don't believe the Bible. Not as long as you reject what the Bible says is required to enter the kingdom of God. The Thief on the Cross was saved by baptism of desire through the personal word of Jesus because he was unable to receive it ''but would have if he could have''. We also have his word and are required to submit when we are able. If we reject his word we reject him and if we reject him we reject him who sent him. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 02:36, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:See the article [http://www.thecatholictreasurechest.com/luther.htm "The Legacy left by Martin Luther, the first Protestant!", by Bob Stanley (thecatholictreasurechest.com)] --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 03:03, 7 November 2019 (EST)
::See, there you go with your wrath again. My bible says, "restore such a one" and "a soft word breaketh the bone." [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 08:25, 7 November 2019 (EST)
== The great legacy of the Protestant reformers: A response to Dataclarifiers' "The Legacy left by Martin Luther, the first Protestant!" ==
=== Protestantism vs. Catholicism and political corruption ===
*[http://elaine.ie/2009/03/31/will-10-more-protestants-lead-to-less-corruption/ Article on Protestant vs. Catholic religion and corruption].
*[http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/oct/31/economics-religion-research Protestant work ethic and European countries]
*[http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/sep/11/pain-gain-work-ethic-burkeman Protestant work ethic]
=== Protestant missionaries and economic and societal development ===
[[Harvard University]] historian [[Niall Ferguson]] declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history."<ref>[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012</ref>
The article ''The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries'' published in ''Christianity Today'' notes:
{{Cquote|In his fifth year of graduate school, Woodberry created a statistical model that could test the connection between missionary work and the health of nations. He and a few research assistants spent two years coding data and refining their methods. They hoped to compute the lasting effect of missionaries, on average, worldwide...
One morning, in a windowless, dusty computer lab lit by fluorescent bulbs, Woodberry ran the first big test. After he finished prepping the statistical program on his computer, he clicked "Enter" and then leaned forward to read the results.
"I was shocked," says Woodberry. "It was like an atomic bomb. The impact of missions on global democracy was huge. I kept adding variables to the model—factors that people had been studying and writing about for the past 40 years—and they all got wiped out. It was amazing. I knew, then, I was on to something really important."
Woodberry already had historical proof that missionaries had educated women and the poor, promoted widespread printing, led nationalist movements that empowered ordinary citizens, and fueled other key elements of democracy. Now the statistics were backing it up: Missionaries weren't just part of the picture. They were central to it...
Areas where Protestant missionaries had a significant presence in the past are on average more economically developed today, with comparatively better health, lower infant mortality, lower corruption, greater literacy, higher educational attainment (especially for women), and more robust membership in nongovernmental associations.
In short: Want a blossoming democracy today? The solution is simple—if you have a time machine: Send a 19th-century missionary."<ref>Christianity Today, [https://archive.is/cDMnA The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries], January 8, 2014</ref>}}
=== America's founders were greatly influenced by Protestantism and not Catholicism ===
America's founders were greatly influenced by Protestantism and not Catholicism. It wasn't until the 1960s that JFK arrived. Is America one of the greatest countries in history? Yes! USA! USA! USA!
=== Roman Catholic Church, Homosexuality and pederasty ===
Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the American [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholic]] bishops and the Vatican had noted a growing problem with clerical sexual abuse in the U.S.<ref>https://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26940</ref> In addition, Ireland and other European countries have experienced problems relating to instances of Roman Catholic priests sexually abusing children.<ref>http://www.daily49er.com/opinion/our-view-catholic-church-needs-administrative-reform-1.2200659</ref>
[[Catholic League]] president Bill Donohue declared concerning the scandals of priests molesting minors:
{{cquote|The latest attempt to silence me comes from GLAAD (Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation), Call to Action and the Interfaith Alliance. The three left-wing organizations have joined hands demanding that the media "ignore Bill Donohue." Their complaint? My telling the truth about the role homosexual priests have played in the abuse scandal.
The data collected by John Jay College of Criminal Justice show that between 1950 and 2002, 81 percent of the victims were male and 75 percent of them were post-pubescent. In other words, three out of every four victims have been abused by homosexuals. By the way, puberty, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics, begins at age 10 for boys.
No problem can be remedied without an accurate diagnosis. And any accurate diagnosis that does not finger the role that homosexuals have played in molesting minors is intellectually dishonest. The cover-up must end. And so must attempts to muzzle my voice. Everything I am saying is what most people already know, but are afraid to say it. It's time for some straight talk.<ref>[http://www.catholicleague.org/attempts-to-censor-donohue-fail/ ATTEMPTS TO CENSOR DONOHUE FAIL.April 1, 2010 by Bill]</ref>}}
Bill Donahue published in the [[New York Times]]:
{{cquote|The Times continues to editorialize about the "pedophilia crisis", when all along it's been a homosexual crisis. Eighty percent of the victims of priestly sexual abuse are male and most of them are post-pubescent. While homosexuality does not cause predatory behavior, and most gay priests are not molesters, most of the molesters have been gay.<ref>https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/bill-donohue-catholic-sex_n_520187.html</ref>}}
=== The just shall live by faith: Here RobSmith, 1990sguy and Wikignome72 stand! We can do no other! ===
As the Apostle Paul himself said, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9.[[User:Wikignome72|Wikignome72]] ([[User talk:Wikignome72|talk]]) 04:33, 7 November 2019 (EST)
:Amen. ''Where two or more are gathered in my name, I am there also'' - that is the body of Christ, the "true church". And we recognize we are all flawed men, but our ''faith has made us whole.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 08:46, 7 November 2019 (EST)
==References==
<references/>
==This is ridiculous==
Dataclaifier's misuse and misquoting of scripture. He repeatedly cut's and pastes a verse of scripture, then says, "See, the bible says such and such and you are condemned to hell." Well, Mr. Dataclifier, the bible says,
:''<big>Blessed is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.''</big><ref>https://biblehub.com/psalms/137-9.htm</ref>
So there, that's what the bible says about your helpless babies and infants. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 10:26, 7 November 2019 (EST)
{{reflist}}
== "Here I stand, I can do no more" — Sola scriptura response from the whole context of the Bible ==
===There you stand — Sola scriptura response from the whole context of the Bible (''this is no spam'') — Bible scriptures opposed by all who reject Regenerative Baptism, Infant baptism, and the authority of the Catholic Church: ===
*Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "regenerated" '''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'' interlinear text] <br>from [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080 '''γεννάω''' ''gennao'' "procreate, regenerate"].[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]
*He who believes and is baptized will be '''saved'''; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
*Baptism '''saves''' you now. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Peter%203%3A21 1 Peter 3:21]
*This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A6 1 John 5:6]
*There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A8 1 John 5:8]
*Jesus '''saves''' us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Titus%203%3A5 Titus 3:5]
*Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 Matthew 28:19]
*With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews%2010%3A22 Hebrews 10:22]
*The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%205%3A26 Ephesians 5:26]
*Be baptized, and wash away your sins. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%2022%3A16 Acts 22:16]
*Be baptized. The promise of '''salvation''' is to you and to your children. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A38 Acts 2:38] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts%202%3A39 and 2:39]
*Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A16 Luke 18:16]
*Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2018%3A17 Luke 18:17]
*Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
*God is not willing that any should perish. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Peter%203%3A9 2 Peter 3:9]
*We are buried with Christ '''in baptism''', in which we are raised again through faith in '''the working of God, God making us alive together with him'''. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%202%3A12 Colossians 2:12] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians%2012%3A13 and 2:13]
*To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2021%3A6 Revelation 21:6]
*A fountain springing up to eternal life. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%204%3A14 John 4:14]
*For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%2012%3A3 1 Corinthians 12:13]
*For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Galatians%2012%3A3 Galatians 3:27]
*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.] Ephesians 4:5-6.
*[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%206%3A4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.] Romans 6:3-4.
*even when we were '''dead''' through our trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by '''grace''' you have been '''saved'''). [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%202%3A5 Ephesians 2:5]. <br> ([[Grace]] '''χάριτί''' ''[[charism|charity]]'' the "gift" bestowed by God on man is not a synonym for the [[faith]] '''πίστεως''' ''pisteos'' of man toward God. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians+2%3A8-10&version=KJV See Ephesians 2:8-10]. Compare <br> [http://biblehub.com/greek/5485 grace '''χάρις''' ''charis'' "grace, graciousness, especially the divine influence on the heart" given by God] and <br> [http://biblehub.com/greek/4102 faith '''ριστις''' ''pistis'' "persuasion, credence, conviction of truth, reliance on Christ for '''salvation''', expressed by man.])
*And such were some of you. But you were '''washed''', you were '''sanctified''', you were '''justified''' in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1Corinthians%206%3A11 1 Corinthians 6:11] "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2028%3A19 Matthew 28:19].
*one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A5 Ephesians 4:5]–[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%204%3A6 6].
:*I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:18-19
:*Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Hebrews 13:17
:*Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Acts 20:28
:*And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16 <br>(''The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in 1 Corinthians 12:27-38''.)
:*For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
:*Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-38 <br>(''The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in Ephesians 4:11-16''.)
:*I commend you because you remember me in everything and '''maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.''' 1 Corinthians 11:2
:*So then, brethren, '''stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word or by letter.''' 2 Thessalonians 2:15
:*Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
:*And account the forbearance of our Lord as '''salvation'''. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of [[Antinomianism|lawless]] men and lose your own stability. 2 Peter 3:15-17
:*You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Timothy 2:1-2 <br> (''often cited by many Churches as support for [[apostolic succession]]'')
:*I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6
:*For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are [[Schism|factious]] and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:6-11
:*You see that a man is '''justified''' by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
:*For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit [[apostasy]], since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6
:*He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Matthew 12:30-31
:*If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 John 5:16-17
:*My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will '''save''' his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
:*I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. '''When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth;''' for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16:12-14
:*And I will pray the Father, and he will give you '''another Counselor''', to be with you '''for ever''', even '''the Spirit of truth''', whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. John 14:16-17
:*Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, '''I am with you always, ''even'' unto the end of the world. Amen.''' Matthew 28:19-20
:*Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
:*For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
:*Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. 1 Peter 2:13
:*So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22
:*if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
:*Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:18-29
:*If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:15-19
:*Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 John 9-11
:*As for a man who is [[Schism|factious]], after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. Titus 3:10-11
:*Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, '''reject authority''', and revile the glorious ones. Jude 8
:*These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage. Jude 16
:*Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A47 John 12:47][https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2012%3A48 12:48]
:*He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%208%3A47 John 8:47]<br>''Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism '''saves''' us now, by water and the blood.''—this is the word of God.
:*I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/2Corinthians%2013%3A2 2 Corinthians 13:2]
:*There is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
:*He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2013%3A13 Proverbs 13:13] [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Proverbs%2028%3A9 and 28:9]
====Bring forth the scriptures that say "baptism cannot save"====
*Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "baptism does not '''save''', baptism cannot '''save'''". <br>Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "the Church does not '''save''', the Church cannot '''save'''", or that "membership in the Church does not '''save'''". <br>Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "membership in the Church eternally assures '''salvation'''" (which Catholic doctrine also rejects). <br>Bring forth here on this page ''Chapter and verse, with words "church", "membership", "baptism" (cannot, does not) "'''save'''", "'''salvation'''"''. <br>Show the Bible passage that explicitly says in any form "''born again by faith.''" <br> You can't. I know, because I looked, and tried to find it. It can't be found. It's not in the Bible. And if it's not in the Bible, the principle of ''sola scriptura'' refutes it totally. <br>So '''if you believe in salvation by faith alone you don't believe the Bible.''' It's as simple as that. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)<br>By the way — The Catholic Church ''does teach'' that the Church saves. CCC '''849''' "''The missionary mandate.'' “Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be ‘the universal sacrament of salvation,’ the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men.” [''AG 7''; cf. ''Heb'' 11:6; ''1 Cor'' 9:6] (<small>''AG'' is the Vatican II document ''Ad Gentes''</small>) --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)
You have clearly demonstrated repeatedly that you do not believe the Bible, because like the original [[Anabaptists]] you refuse to believe the whole context of all the scriptures cited here above and used by Protestants and Orthodox and Catholics against them to no avail. If you chop up this one as you did before and contradict even one of these Bible passages, you will prove your opposition to the Bible and [[enmity]] to the truth. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" John 17:17. <br> You will not hear from me again. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)