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Debate: Infant baptism (view source)
Revision as of 11:25, November 9, 2019
, 11:25, November 9, 2019→What is the difference between orginal sin and actual sin: new section
::::God is love. God is spirit. Learning or experiencing these truths has nothing to do with water baptism, which is only symbolic. Salvation is not brought about by learning the teachings or traditions of the elders. It only comes by ''hearing the Word of God'', which circumcision and infant baptism disposes of the need to hear. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 16:25, 8 November 2019 (EST)
::::God is love. God is spirit. Learning or experiencing these truths has nothing to do with water baptism, which is only symbolic. Salvation is not brought about by learning the teachings or traditions of the elders. It only comes by ''hearing the Word of God'', which circumcision and infant baptism disposes of the need to hear. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 16:25, 8 November 2019 (EST)
====What is the diffence between original sin and actual sin?====
Romans 5:14-16:
:Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam.
:[H]e is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. And the gift is not like ''that which came'' through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment ''arose'' from one ''transgression'' resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift ''arose'' from many transgressions resulting in justification.
=====Ancient world=====
St. Augustine (413-426 A.D.) ''The City of God'', Book 14
{{sc|Chap.}} 1. ''That the disobedience of the first man would have plunged all men into the endless misery of the second death, had not the grace of God rescued many''
{{sc|We}} have already stated in the preceding books that God, desiring not only that the human race might be able by their similarity of nature to associate with one another, but also that they might be bound together in harmony and peace by the ties of relationship, was pleased to derive all men from one individual, and created man with such a nature that the members of the race should not have died, had not the two first (of whom the one was created out of nothing, and the other out of him) merited this by their disobedience; for by them so great a sin was committed, that by it the human nature was altered for the worse, and was transmitted also to their posterity, liable to sin and subject to death. And the kingdom of death so reigned over men, that the deserved penalty of sin would have hurled all headlong even into the second death, of which there is no end, had not the undeserved grace of God saved some therefrom. And thus it has come to pass, that though there are very many and great nations all over the earth, whose rites and customs, speech, arms, and dress, are distinguished by marked differences, yet there are no more than two kinds of human society, which we may justly call two cities, according to the language of our Scriptures. The one consists of those who wish to live after the flesh, the other of those who wish to live after the spirit; and when they severally achieve what they wish, they live in peace, each after their kind.
{{sc|Chap.}} 3. ''That the sin is caused not by the flesh, but by the soul, and that the corruption contracted from sin is not sin but sin’s punishment''
{{sc|But}} if any one says that the flesh is the cause of all vices and ill conduct, inasmuch as the soul lives wickedly only because it is moved by the flesh, it is certain he has not carefully considered the whole nature of man. For “the corruptible body, indeed, weigheth down the soul.”<ref>Wisdom 9:15</ref> Whence, too, the apostle, speaking of this corruptible body, of which he had shortly before said, “though our outward man perish,”<ref>II Cor. 4:16.</ref> says, “We know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up in life.”<ref>II Cor. 5:1-4</ref> We are then burdened with this corruptible body; but knowing that the cause of this burdensomeness is not the nature and substance of the body, but its corruption, we do not desire to be deprived of the body, but to be clothed with its immortality. For then, also, there will be a body, but it shall no longer be a burden, being no longer corruptible. At present, then, “the corruptible body presseth down the soul, and the earthly tabernacle weigheth down the mind that museth upon many things,” nevertheless they are in error who suppose that all the evils of the soul proceed from the body.
Virgil, indeed, seems to express the sentiments of Plato in the beautiful lines, where he says:
:''A fiery strength inspires their lives,
:''An essence that from heaven derives,
:''Though clogged in part by limbs of clay
:''And the dull "vesture of decay";''<ref>''Æneid''. {{sc|bk}}. 6, ll. 730-32</ref>
but though he goes on to mention the four most common mental emotions,—desire, fear, joy, sorrow,—with the intention of showing that the body is the origin of all sins and vices, saying:
:''Hence wild desires and grovelling fears,
:''And human laughter, human tears,
:''Immured in dungeon-seeming nights
:''They look abroad, yet see no light,<ref>''Ibid''., 733, 734</ref>
yet we believe quite otherwise. For the corruption of the body, which weighs down the soul, is not the cause but the punishment of the first sin; and it was not the corruptible flesh that made the soul sinful, but the sinful soul that made the flesh corruptible. And though from this corruption of the flesh there arise certain incitements to vice, and indeed vicious desires, yet we must not attribute to the flesh all the vices of a wicked life, in case we thereby clear the devil of all these, for he has no flesh. For though we cannot call the devil a fornicator or drunkard, or ascribe to him any sensual indulgence (though he is the secret instigator and prompter of those who sin in these ways), yet he is exceedingly proud and envious. And this viciousness has so possessed him, that on account of it he is reserved in chains of darkness to everlasting punishment. Now these vices, which have dominion over the devil, the apostle attributes to the flesh, which certainly the devil has not. For he says “hatred, variance, emulations, strife, envying” are the works of the flesh; and of all these evils pride is the origin and head, and it rules in the devil though he has no flesh. For who shows more hatred to the saints? who is more at variance with them? who more envious, bitter, and jealous? And since he exhibits all these works, though he has no flesh, how are they works of the flesh, unless because they are the works of man, who is, as I said, spoken of under the name of flesh? For it is not by having flesh, which the devil has not, but by living according to himself,—that is, according to man,—that man became like the devil. For the devil too, wished to live according to himself when he did not abide in the truth; so that when he lied, this was not of God, but of himself, who is not only a liar, but the father of lies, he being the first who lied, and the originator of lying as of sin.
----
{{reflist|2}}
==Discussion 107: Justification of the ungodly means remission of sins: who can be baptized?==
==Discussion 107: Justification of the ungodly means remission of sins: who can be baptized?==