Changes

:::::We Recovering Catholics have a joke,  "The Roman Catholic Church thinks they got God captured in a box" - which Dataclarifier just artfully established. For those not in the know, let me explain: every Roman Catholic church has a 'tabernacle' where previously consecrated, unused communion hosts are stored. I'm not here to discuss transubstantiation, but I will relay what my brother, who was a seminarian, told me about his conversion:  he said that at the age of 8 he wondered if everytime he took a crap, he lost Jesus.  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]} 12:36, 27 November 2019 (EST)

:::::We Recovering Catholics have a joke,  "The Roman Catholic Church thinks they got God captured in a box" - which Dataclarifier just artfully established. For those not in the know, let me explain: every Roman Catholic church has a 'tabernacle' where previously consecrated, unused communion hosts are stored. I'm not here to discuss transubstantiation, but I will relay what my brother, who was a seminarian, told me about his conversion:  he said that at the age of 8 he wondered if everytime he took a crap, he lost Jesus.  [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]} 12:36, 27 November 2019 (EST)

::::::I had the same question when I first accepted Catholic doctrine in the Bible. When the host ceases to be the recognizable form of bread (fifteen minutes at most) the [[Real presence]] of Christ Jesus departs, avoiding defilement, while his Spirit remains in the heart and soul. The priest explains this when anyone asks. If he didn't ask, he didn't want to. "If you want to, you'll find a way, If you don't you'll find an excuse." (''people who doubt have a right to know—if they really want to'')--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:13, 27 November 2019 (EST)

::::::I had the same question when I first accepted Catholic doctrine in the Bible. When the host ceases to be the recognizable form of bread (fifteen minutes at most) the [[Real presence]] of Christ Jesus departs, avoiding defilement, while his Spirit remains in the heart and soul. The priest explains this when anyone asks. If he didn't ask, he didn't want to. "If you want to, you'll find a way, If you don't you'll find an excuse." (''people who doubt have a right to know—if they really want to'')--[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:13, 27 November 2019 (EST)

::::*Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "regenerated" '''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'' interlinear text] <br>from [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080 '''γεννάω''' ''gennao'' "procreate, regenerate"].[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]

::::*Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "regenerated" '''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'' interlinear text] <br>from [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080 '''γεννάω''' ''gennao'' "procreate, regenerate"].[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]

::::*This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A6 1 John 5:6]

::::*This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. [https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/1John%205%3A6 1 John 5:6]

::::::No, Mr. Dataclifier, the scripture ''is not'' a smorgasbord of loosely meaningless verses you can pick and choose like at a cafeteria in support of an errant doctrine. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]} 17:03, 27 November 2019 (EST)

::::::No, Mr. Dataclifier, the scripture ''is not'' a smorgasbord of loosely meaningless verses you can pick and choose like at a cafeteria in support of an errant doctrine. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]} 17:03, 27 November 2019 (EST)

:::::::Scripture is not meaningless. All of it in context is true. But some twist its meaning to their own destruction by ignoring and contradicting chosen selected parts as unworthy of belief. 2&nbsp;Peter 3:15-18. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:17, 27 November 2019 (EST)

:::::::Scripture is not meaningless. All of it in context is true. But some twist its meaning to their own destruction by ignoring and contradicting chosen selected parts as unworthy of belief. 2&nbsp;Peter 3:15-18. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:17, 27 November 2019 (EST)

::::*"He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me." [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2014%3A24 John 14:24]. <br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 09:56, 27 November 2019 (EST)

::::*"He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me." [https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2014%3A24 John 14:24]. <br> --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 09:56, 27 November 2019 (EST)

::::*Except a man be regenerated by water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "regenerated" '''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'' interlinear text] <br>from [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080 '''γεννάω''' ''gennao'' "procreate, regenerate"].[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]

::::*Except a man be regenerated by water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm John 3:5 "regenerated" '''γεννεθή''' ''gennethe'' interlinear text] <br>from [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080 '''γεννάω''' ''gennao'' "procreate, regenerate"].[https://biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%203%3A5 John 3:5]

:Objections to Jesus' requirement of water baptism are fundamentally (pun intended) based on the erroneous belief that Catholicism teaches that the doctrine of regenerative baptism infallibly secures salvation eternally, infallibly, irrevocably for infants who grow to adulthood and that it cannot for any reason be rescinded or cancelled because of sin—therefore, no one baptized as an infant can lose their salvation. <br> That is not Catholic doctrine. It isn't biblical doctrine. <br> See [[Eternal security (salvation)]] "''once saved, always saved''". The New Testament ''repeatedly'' warns believers that they '''can lose the grace of salvation!''' <br> According to the doctrine of regenerative baptism of infants (''which is nowhere condemned in the Bible'') one is saved now by baptism, and that afterward, as they mature and come to increasing growth in their conscious grasp of  the supernaturally infused baptismal faith by the supernatural help of the grace of baptism in their souls, they can rebelliously turn away from faith in Christ, and lose the grace of salvation unto eternal life that God the Holy Spirit poured into the soul with the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Spirit and be condemned. "He who believes '''and''' is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be damned." (Failure to believe afterward.) The Church warns her baptized children and adult converts, ''in complete agreement with the Bible'', that the [[Presumption#Presumption (sin)|'''sin of presumption''']] in believing they can now go ahead and freely sin with impunity because they are baptized is mortally fatal, and that purposely sinning kills the grace of salvation in the soul.<br>'''It is not Catholic or Bible doctrine that baptism permanently secures eternal salvation.''' Salvation is an eternal gift of unmerited grace as long as one remains faithful to God ('''Ezekiel 18'''). It is also not Bible doctrine that faith alone saves infallibly and irrevocably. Salvation by regenerative baptism can be lost by sin. Salvation by faith alone can be lost. If this is unclear, I will post all the warnings in the New Testament that say we must persevere in grace (of baptism) to the end to be saved. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 19:56, 27 November 2019 (EST)

:Objections to Jesus' requirement of water baptism are fundamentally (pun intended) based on the erroneous belief that Catholicism teaches that the doctrine of regenerative baptism infallibly secures salvation eternally, infallibly, irrevocably for infants who grow to adulthood and that it cannot for any reason be rescinded or cancelled because of sin—therefore, no one baptized as an infant can lose their salvation. <br> That is not Catholic doctrine. It isn't biblical doctrine. <br> See [[Eternal security (salvation)]] "''once saved, always saved''". The New Testament ''repeatedly'' warns believers that they '''can lose the grace of salvation!''' <br> According to the doctrine of regenerative baptism of infants (''which is nowhere condemned in the Bible'') one is saved now by baptism, and that afterward, as they mature and come to increasing growth in their conscious grasp of  the supernaturally infused baptismal faith by the supernatural help of the grace of baptism in their souls, they can rebelliously turn away from faith in Christ, and lose the grace of salvation unto eternal life that God the Holy Spirit poured into the soul with the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Spirit and be condemned. "He who believes '''and''' is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be damned." (Failure to believe afterward.) The Church warns her baptized children and adult converts, ''in complete agreement with the Bible'', that the [[Presumption#Presumption (sin)|'''sin of presumption''']] in believing they can now go ahead and freely sin with impunity because they are baptized is mortally fatal, and that purposely sinning kills the grace of salvation in the soul.<br>'''It is not Catholic or Bible doctrine that baptism permanently secures eternal salvation.''' Salvation is an eternal gift of unmerited grace as long as one remains faithful to God ('''Ezekiel 18'''). It is also not Bible doctrine that faith alone saves infallibly and irrevocably. Salvation by regenerative baptism can be lost by sin. Salvation by faith alone can be lost. If this is unclear, I will post all the warnings in the New Testament that say we must persevere in grace (of baptism) to the end to be saved. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 19:56, 27 November 2019 (EST)

::Let me get one step ahead of you: [https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html] [https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html] [https://www.gotquestions.org/Matthew-7-21-23.html] [https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-10-26.html] [https://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html] [https://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy-salvation.html] These are old canards. People much wiser than us have been debating them for a long time. Also, no, I do not think that Catholics believe that baptism is eternal security, nor do the people on the Gotquestions website. But Catholics do think it's necessary to get to Heaven as one of their 7 Sacraments. [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 20:38, 27 November 2019 (EST)

::Let me get one step ahead of you: [https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html] [https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html] [https://www.gotquestions.org/Matthew-7-21-23.html] [https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-10-26.html] [https://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html] [https://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy-salvation.html] These are old canards. People much wiser than us have been debating them for a long time. Also, no, I do not think that Catholics believe that baptism is eternal security, nor do the people on the Gotquestions website. But Catholics do think it's necessary to get to Heaven as one of their 7 Sacraments. [[User:Shobson20|Shobson20]] ([[User talk:Shobson20|talk]]) 20:38, 27 November 2019 (EST)