Changes

::::I know I said I was going to leave this discussion but I can't let that gem pass.  With that you have shown without doubt that do not, and never, have lived in the UK.  You are basing your view of punk, a <i>movement</i> that as you understand it started in the UK, on the US off shoot.  Punk in the UK originally had little to do with social stratification.  Trust me, I was there.  I bought the records, I went to the gigs and I knew some of the people in the bands.  Angry working class kids in general they most certainly were not.  The working class kids were still listening to Genesis and The Pink Floyd or going to discos listening to Donna Summer.  And we won't even get into the influence of the Dolls or Johnny T et al on both the UK punk movement and the eventual US punk scene.  [[User:Davidspencer|Davidspencer]] 02:23, 10 February 2012 (EST)

::::I know I said I was going to leave this discussion but I can't let that gem pass.  With that you have shown without doubt that do not, and never, have lived in the UK.  You are basing your view of punk, a <i>movement</i> that as you understand it started in the UK, on the US off shoot.  Punk in the UK originally had little to do with social stratification.  Trust me, I was there.  I bought the records, I went to the gigs and I knew some of the people in the bands.  Angry working class kids in general they most certainly were not.  The working class kids were still listening to Genesis and The Pink Floyd or going to discos listening to Donna Summer.  And we won't even get into the influence of the Dolls or Johnny T et al on both the UK punk movement and the eventual US punk scene.  [[User:Davidspencer|Davidspencer]] 02:23, 10 February 2012 (EST)

:::I could have been more precise, but I did clearly say one of the reasons it took off and I did not say one of the reasons it originated. Punk was anti-establishment and no doubt the joblessness at the time in the UK fed some of the anti-establishment sentiments. Of course, the large demographic of young people due to the baby boomer generation and the events of the 1960s contributed to the anti-establishment sentiments as well in Western Civilization. Of course, who does joblessness hurt the most typically? Of course, it is lower classes - particularly in societies with lower social mobility. The British punk song "No future" is not exactly an endorsement of British social stratification and the British Royalty. I clearly did say that one of the reasons. I did not say to what degree it was a reason. Here is what a music website says about the Punk rock movement: "In England, politics was their target....Unemployment and poverty reached rarely seen levels and racial tensions had elevated. Added to this was the ‘hooligan’ attitude of drinking and fighting, which was becoming common in cities such as London, Manchester and Birmingham. Punk rock ignited the explosive mixture of social and economic problems."[http://www.storyofpop.com/punkignites.html][[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:03, 10 February 2012 (EST)

:::I could have been more precise, but I did clearly say one of the reasons it took off and I did not say one of the reasons it originated. Punk was anti-establishment and no doubt the joblessness at the time in the UK fed some of the anti-establishment sentiments. Of course, the large demographic of young people due to the baby boomer generation and the events of the 1960s contributed to the anti-establishment sentiments as well in Western Civilization. Of course, who does joblessness hurt the most typically? Of course, it is lower classes - particularly in societies with lower social mobility. The British punk song "No future" is not exactly an endorsement of British social stratification and the British Royalty. I clearly did say that one of the reasons. I did not say to what degree it was a reason. Here is what a music website says about the Punk rock movement: "In England, politics was their target....Unemployment and poverty reached rarely seen levels and racial tensions had elevated. Added to this was the ‘hooligan’ attitude of drinking and fighting, which was becoming common in cities such as London, Manchester and Birmingham. Punk rock ignited the explosive mixture of social and economic problems."[http://www.storyofpop.com/punkignites.html][[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 05:03, 10 February 2012 (EST)

User Conservative: you have indeed shown that social mobility in Britain is nothing short of disgraceful; that was never in doubt.  However, nothing in this interesting discussion shows any kind of consistent correlation, let alone causation, between supporting an underdog, social mobility, economics, social values or faith.  Your point about fiscal prudence in the Eurozone, for example, falls when we remember that Britain is not in the Euro but Finland is, with Sweden notionally obliged to join the Euro in the future.  Even Mr Schafly's cultural illustrations of social immobility do little more than further muddy the waters: they are underdog friendly and Dickens's canon, like his own life, typifies the remarkable social mobility of his time.  (BTW, the song you're thinking of is God Save the Queen) [[User:Rafael|Rafael]] 15:27, 10 February 2012 (EST)

User Conservative: you have indeed shown that social mobility in Britain is nothing short of disgraceful; that was never in doubt.  However, nothing in this interesting discussion shows any kind of consistent correlation, let alone causation, between supporting an underdog, social mobility, economics, social values or faith.  Your point about fiscal prudence in the Eurozone, for example, falls when we remember that Britain is not in the Euro but Finland is, with Sweden notionally obliged to join the Euro in the future.  Even Mr Schafly's cultural illustrations of social immobility do little more than further muddy the waters: they are underdog friendly and Dickens's canon, like his own life, typifies the remarkable social mobility of his time.  (BTW, the song you're thinking of is God Save the Queen) [[User:Rafael|Rafael]] 15:27, 10 February 2012 (EST)