Talk:Homosexuality and choice

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Hi, I found a link where the APA officially state that [homosexuality is not changeable]. It's scary that even the largest group of psychologists in the world can be so wrong on this topic. Do you think it's part of a homosexual conspiracy? We should mention this conspiracy in the article. --Huffers 10:32, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Why is it that if you ask almost any gay person, including myself, they will tell you that it is not a choice. Do you choose to be straight if you are? Can you force yourself to be gay? It is really a quite stupid question, considering that the one group that has any authority in the matter is consistently ignored. Kiss20 22:02 16 January 2008 (EST)

I don't think you'll find any psychologist who says that children or adolescents "choose to be gay". But generally the decision to pursue or avoid a same-sex encounter is a choice. (The role of homosexual incest and homosexual rape also needs to be studied, because the element of choice is denied to the victim.) --Ed Poor Talk 07:25, 21 November 2008 (EST)

The two most outspoken men in America on this topic are psychologist Charles Socarides and therapist Richard Cohen (an ex-gay). --Ed Poor Talk 17:08, 24 November 2007 (EST)

Socarides was not a psychologist. And he died a few years ago. Murray 11:52, 24 February 2008 (EST)
He was a clinical professor of psychiatry at Albert Einstein College of Medicine. Doesn't psychiatry include psychology?

One of the former presidents of APA is involved in organizations helping homosexuals leave homosexuality, and the University of Columbia published statistics recently that showed that if one twin is gay the chance the other one is gay is about 7%. So yes it is a choice. -- 50 star flag.png User:Deborah (contributions) (talk) 10:36, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

May I ask how your statistic is at all evidence for the idea that homosexuality is a choice? The leading medical organizations all agree that "conversion" programs (which are consistent with the idea that homosexuality is a choice) are ineffective and potentially harmful. These include (among others) the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, World Health Organization, and the Council on Child and Adolescent Health. The following is a quote from one of these organizations denouncing such programs "The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable." ~American Psychological Association 1998. Now, where is your scientific evidence that such programs are indeed effective? Please do not offer and example or two of people who have "successfully" changed because I can come up with equal if not greater numbers of failures. There is no firm basis for such belief as every credible medical and psychiatric organization directly contradicts the idea, as does the only community with direct experience with the topic. (I find it ironic that this website is perfectly willing to quote the AMA or WHO when they offer statistics of increased STD rates in the gay community, but not when it comes to the idea that homosexuality is a choice and can be altered). As a gay man, I can tell you that I in no way made the choice to be so. Even at the young age of eight, I began having same-sex attractions. I did not know what heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, or any other form of sexuality even was. I did not even know what sex was, yet I still felt attractions to boys where others my age felt it for girls. Your ignorance on the topic is harmful for my community, and the society as a whole. It is people like you who cause the psychological problems among the homosexual community as well as trying to convince them that it is something that needs to be altered. Kiss20 14:07 23 April 2008 (EST)

You apparently are assuming that the following two positions cover every aspect of the subject:
  1. homosexuality is not changeable
  2. homosexuality is a choice
This looks like the fallacy of the "excluded middle". --Ed Poor Talk 15:12, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Treatment for alcoholism also has many failures that does not mean it is not worth it to go through the process still, any chance of leaving alcoholism/homosexuality is a sufficient amount-- 50 star flag.png User:Deborah (contributions) (talk) 18:21, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

However, no credible medical/scientific organization denies an alcoholic's ability to quit drinking, most promote it. The same medical organizations that encourage treatment of alcoholism condemn attempts to "treat" homosexuality. Kiss20 20:20 23 April 2008 (EST)

Because of pressure for them to say otherwise, APA changed their view after a big controversy involving homosexuals being hurt by some means by cops happened npt because of research, if I was a teacher and I said homosexuality for example, was wrong I'd get fired-- 50 star flag.png User:Deborah (contributions) (talk) 20:53, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

That's why in an encyclopedia we cannot rely on appeals to authority. Organizations are beset by politics. What we need is hard science, such as research into cure rates. Alcoholics tell us they were cured, by Twelve Steps or medicine or detox facilities. Homosexuals are beginning to say the same, but AA started in 1935; they've had 7 decades of experience and continued religious and political and legal support.
Homosexuality is tied to moral relativism, feminism, communism, etc. A well-funded campaign is lobbying for its legitimacy. This affects votes within organizations like the APA.
I'm not debating here - merely listing facts that need to go into the article. You are here to help us write the article, aren't you? --Ed Poor Talk 20:57, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Many prisoners choose homosexuality in prisons-- 50 star flag.png User:Deborah (contributions) (talk) 21:35, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Kiss20 you have convinced yourself that an unhealthy beahvior is an acceptable behavior to such an extent you refuse to leave it, for example I used to mastrubate, until I till stopped being a slave to my body, and instead practiced self-discipline and thought myself not to do it-- 50 star flag.png User:Deborah (contributions) (talk) 21:43, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

It was very hard but I took control instead of being a slave to me body, and I can imagine it is hard to get rid of one's homosexual thoughts but that does not mean it should not be done-- 50 star flag.png User:Deborah (contributions) (talk) 21:45, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

First of all, I couldn't if I wanted to to. Second of all, I don't even want to. I have absolutely no problem with who I am. In fact, being gay has made me a stronger and better person. It has taught me how to deal with problems on my own, it has taught me to never be ashamed of who I am, never to let other people's definition of who I am superceed my own. If there was a way for me to "go straight" I wouldn't choose it. Why you ask? Because this is who I am, this is who I have found myself to be. I do not seek your or anyone else's approval, I do not need it. I have my own approval, that is all that I need. There is no way you can convince me otherwise, I am merely trying to bring some objectivism to this site. I personally don't care if you hate me, if you disapprove of my lifestyle, because I know that you have no right to judge me. I only work to build tolerance in that my community can finally be given all the rights that society has thusfar denied us. You can continue on hating us, I am not attempting to change your beliefs. I am merely working to ensure that one day people like me are considered equal under the law. Kiss20 23:32 23 April 2008 (EST)

I don't hate homosexuals, I disprove of their lifestyle, major difference-- 50 star flag.png User:Deborah (contributions) (talk) 23:37, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Hate, disapprove, take your pick. My message is still the same.Kiss20 23:56 23 April 2008 (EST)

Along with the contradiction between their assertion that they don't need our approval but insist on our tolerance, there is another matter: whether free will and responsibility have any link to homosexuality.
The debate is between those saying homosexuality is okay and those saying it is bad. The simple religious reason that it is bad is because the Bible says so. There are also psychological and sociological evidence that the homosexual lifestyle is self-injurious, as well as harmful to society.
The usual counter arguments are several:
  1. That we are wrong in our interpretation of the Bible, that God wouldn't "make me gay" if it were bad, etc.
  2. That none of the psychological problems homosexuals have are caused by their lifestyle but are merely the result of society's intolerance. (But the same problems occur to the same degree in "tolerant" communities and countries: San Francisco, Greenwich Village, Provincetown, Holland, etc.)
Perhaps the biggest clash is between those arguing about choice. In regards to abortion, free will is exalted by liberals. They say both that the choice to get pregnant and the choice to abort the pregnancy must be respected. It is a conscious act of the free will, and whatever choice the woman (or girl) makes is okay. But in regards to homosexuality, inexplicably they deny that there is any element of choice. To have same-gender sex is a drive, a need, a compulsion too strong to resist; it bad for your health to try to eliminate it.
Christians and psychologists who disagree with this advance different arguments, not always mutually supportive. Some Christians emphasize choice far above "environmental" factors, for example by dismissing upbringing. They recommend religious conversion and prayer: "I got saved, and Jesus took away all my sinful desires." Psychologists and sociologists who oppose homosexuality (a tiny and understandably fearful minority) recommend counseling and therapy. --Ed Poor Talk 07:21, 21 November 2008 (EST)

I don't want to be gay. I tried to change. Tried for a decade. I had relationships with women and ended up hurting their feelings because I wasn't sexually attracted to them - and they were beautiful, good looking, lovely people. But I couldn't do it. Eventually it got to the point where I began suffereing from depression. If I could make myself attracted to women, I would. Believe me. I wish I could have stayed with my girlfriends from before, I wish that somehow I could choose to be attracted to women, but I can't. I don't like mainstream gay culture. And I don't like stereotypically gay men. But I've been attracted to men as long as I can remember and try as I might, it isn't changing. So, much as I dislike it myself, if I am going to find love in my life I have to accept that I am gay and I can't change it. Maybe, one day, when I'm comfortable with that, I can fall in love with someone. Imagine. What would you all have me do? -- oclunaigh

You should stop cursing God, that might be a place to start. In your situation, you are called to live a life of abstinence. --Jpatt 13:05, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
I disagree. A person who repents and becomes a Christian is born again and a new creature according the Bible.[1] Although there are people called to celibacy such as the Apostle Paul appears to have been (although he might have been married previously to his conversion), I know of cases where former homosexuals walk away from the homosexuality and live happily married lives. I suggest reading Conservapedia's ex-homosexuals and overcoming homosexuality articles and then examine the resource HERE. conservative 20:41, 13 November 2010 (EST)

Factual error

There have been dozens, perhaps hundreds, of scientific studies regarding homosexuality, and the vast majority of these articles indicate it is genetic. So-called "ex-homosexuals" are, by and large, homosexuals who repress their true feelings and desires. Factcheck47: Making sure Conservapedia stays Trustworthy 15:02, 18 December 2011 (EST)