Talk:Nationalism vs. globalism

National Globalism

This article needs to be expanded to include discussion of a movement that I believe is beginning to gain serious traction, especially in the former Soviet states and the states immediately bordering them. I call it the "National Globalist" movement.

More commonly known by academics as "Eurasianism" because of the region where it is most popular, National Globalism is a political ideology that fuses radical nationalism with the anti-Judeo-Christian global revolution espoused by the USSR, and the regional imperialism espoused by globalists. In essence, National Globalism is the "national" equivalent of Globalism, much like Nazism was the "national" equivalent of Communism.

Should a National Globalist party come to power, it would create a totalitarian regime that would impose Nazi-esque policies on the domestic population, sponsor the violent overthrow of foreign governments that do not have National Globalist parties in power, and use a combination of "free" trade and militarism to create separate "unions" of countries that are deemed to part of the same civilization. If that sounds familiar to you at all, it should. This is basically Coudenhove-Kalergi, except it is mainly rooted in Nazism instead of orthodox Globalism.

I have more details to discuss, but it's getting late and I want to go to bed. I hope to hear a reply soon.

- Geopolitician, 10 January 2018, 01:52 EST

This seems like an interesting concept, and it seems to me that many of the openly pro-Russia socialist/Marxist/communist parties in Eastern Europe have this point of view. However, I doubt that this ideology really is that influential in the region. If you're referring to Poland and Hungary, it is definitely not prevalent. Those countries support nationalism along with explicit Christian values. Russia under Putin also seems to be taking a more socially conservative stance. I can see this ideology is countries such as Belarus, however. --1990'sguy (talk) 09:46, 10 January 2018 (EST)

National Globalist (or "Eurasianist) front groups can be found all across the former USSR and the countries immediately surrounding it. However, they likely will be most effective in Russia, the Caucasian states, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, the Central Asian states, and China. These are the states that Brzezinski claimed to be the "Eurasian Balkans" that will be the center of geopolitical conflict in the early 21st century. Many National Globalists place geopolitics at the center of their ideology. They adopt geopolitical models such as Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations," Kitsikis' "Intermediate Region," and especially Alexander Dugin's "Foundations of Geopolitics," which is considered to be the "Communist Manifesto" of National Globalism. The last of those models calls for the transformation of Russia into a "Eurasian Empire" that unites the Slavic and Turkic races into an entity that rejects both Western and Eastern values and replaces both traditional Christianity and traditional Islam with a "pan-Eurasian culture" that is centered on imperial unity. This is essentially a bastardization of Russian nationalism into another form of multiculturalism that rejects the cosmopolitanism of orthodox Globalism but is still inherently anti-Christian and pro-pagan. Dugin and his followers (which include Richard Spencer and Matthew Heimbach from the alt-right here in the US) try to present themselves as Christian traditionalists and paint anybody who rejects this false nationalism as being Globalists and "cucks." Don't fall for it. They are frauds. Dugin (likely) has even been excommunicated from the Russian Orthodox Church because of his membership of the "Old Believers," a group deemed heretical by the Patriarch of Moscow.

A map of Dugin's geopolitical theory can be found at this link- http://i.imgur.com/OaHgGcA.png

Note that should Russia transform into that "Eurasian Empire," its demographics would change drastically. For example, Russia today is 73.3% Christian and 12.5% Muslim. Dugin's "Eurasian Empire" would be 65.1% Christian and 23.8% Muslim.

Many of Putin's detractors point to Dugin as proof that Putin is a closet fascist. I know this because I was once part of that group of detractors. In reality, while it is true that Dugin has influence in the Russian military (Foundations of Geopolitics is a textbook that can be found in Russian military academies) and was once an adviser to members of the Duma, there is no evidence that he has ever advised Putin himself, or even met him. In fact, since the Ukraine war began, there have been growing tensions between Dugin's followers and mainstream Putin supporters. Dugin has repeatedly attacked Putin for being too soft on the Ukrainians, and one time even called for Putin to commit genocide against them. The latter incident resulted in him being fired from his position as a professor at Moscow State University. He now makes a living selling books on geopolitics, running a TV channel called Tsargrad TV (which he claims is watched by approximately a quarter of all Russians), and making guest appearances on Infowars and various alt-right internet shows. Meanwhile, he has been turning to Erdogan's Turkey and Iran as alternate countries to be the center of the National Globalist movement. Only time will tell whether Erdogan will replace Putin as "Dugin's guy" in the future.

One more thing. As for European countries such as Poland and Hungary, you are correct that Poland doesn't have a National Globalist problem. You're incorrect about Hungary, however. Jobbik, the third-largest political party in Hungary, has openly embraced National Globalism, in the name of the creation of a "Turanian Empire" that unites culturally, linguistically or ethnically related peoples of Inner Asian and Central Asian origin, like the Finns, Japanese, Koreans, Hungarians, Turks, and Mongols. This "alternative nationalist" party strongly opposes Viktor Orban because they don't consider him to the "right kind" of nationalist, and has refused to join any coalition government with his "Fidesz" party. Despite Orban's current popularity, according to a 2016 survey by Millennial Dialogue, Jobbik is far more popular among Hungarian Millennials than Fidesz is. In fact, an absolute majority (53%) of Hungarian Millennials support Jobbik.

This means this party has a real chance of coming to power in the future. It also means that (at least in Hungary, though I believe this is a problem in many other Western countries as well) there is a real disconnect between the Millennials and older generations on the right as well as on the left. Their minds warped by left-wing and Globalist propaganda almost from birth, they don't know how to embrace any form of politics other than a form of radicalism. Many of them are radical leftists at heart, but because of growing civilizational fault lines around the world, they find it very easy to convert to radical nationalist ideologies such as Nazism and National Globalism. Hitler once (correctly) stated that the best Nazis came from former Communists, because Communists and Nazis have the same radical spirits despite coming to different political conclusions. The same logic can be applied to Globalism and National Globalism today. --Geopolitician (talk) 11:26, 11 January 2018 (EST)

Very interesting points, and these comments are convincing. Thanks for pointing out Jobbik -- however, as you obviously know, Jobbik is nowhere close to being in power, and I don't think the upcoming election will change that.

About Dugin, I looked up "Old Believers", and it appears to be an older form of Eastern Orthodox Christianity before some reforms in the 1600s. It seems that he is an old-fashioned Eastern Orthodox.

However, I agree with your other points. Please add this to the article (preferably in the "Globalism" section), and maybe even to the "Globalism" article as well. I probably won't add it myself due to lack of time and knowledge on this specific topic. --1990'sguy (talk) 12:14, 11 January 2018 (EST)

Thank you. I will try to add to this article when I have time. But I often don't have time, so hopefully someone will help this article expand with this topic.

Just to clarify, I agree that Jobbik coming to power is still several election cycles away. It would take a completely unforeseen event that destroys Orban politically for this to happen in the next election. The country that I am really concerned about is Turkey. As stated before, ever since Dugin turned against Putin, he's been focusing more on having Erdogan lead his revolution instead. Erdogan may be far more receptive to Dugin's ideas than Putin ever will be because the Eurasian heartland is much more dominated by Turkic peoples than by Slavic peoples, and Erdogan is a pan-Turkic nationalist (though that's his secondary ideology, his primary ideology is Islamism). In addition, Turkey is one of only two countries in Eurasian heartland that I think is strong enough to pose a serious challenge to historic Russian hegemony, the other being China. Dugin himself acknowledges this in "Foundations of Geopolitics."

Also, Dugin may claim to be old-fashioned Eastern Orthodox, but he is not recognized as such by the Russian Orthodox Church. The "Old Believers" are deemed heretical by the Patriarch of Moscow, and vice versa. Dugin represents Orthodoxy as much as the Sedevacatnists represent Catholicism. --Geopolitician (talk) 11:25, 13 January 2018 (EST)

Geopolitician,

Wikipedia says about Euroasiamism: "The Eurasianists believed that the Soviet regime was capable of evolving into a new national, non-European Orthodox Christian government, shedding the initial mask of proletarian internationalism and militant atheism (which the Eurasianists were strongly opposed to)."

You wrote regarding "national globablism": "This is essentially a bastardization of Russian nationalism into another form of multiculturalism that rejects the cosmopolitanism of orthodox Globalism but is still inherently anti-Christian and pro-pagan."

In the Roman empire one the reasons why that Christianity prevailed over the pagans is that their fertility rate was much greater.[1]

"In his remarkable book The Rise of Christianity, the American sociologist of religion Rodney Stark explains how an obscure sect with just 40 converts in the year 30AD became the official religion of the Roman empire by 300. The standard answer to this question is that the emperor Constantine had a vision which led to his conversion and an embrace of Christianity. Stark demonstrates the flaws in this “great man” portrait of history. Christianity, he says, expanded at the dramatic rate of 40 per cent a decade for over two centuries, and this upsurge was only partly the result of its appeal to the wider population of Hellenistic pagans. Christian demography was just as important. Unlike the pagans, Christians cared for their sick during plagues rather than abandoning them, which sharply lowered mortality. In contrast to the “macho” ethos of pagans, Christians emphasised male fidelity and marriage, which attracted a higher percentage of female converts, who in turn raised more Christian children. Moreover, adds Stark, Christians had a higher fertility rate than pagans, yielding even greater demographic advantage."[2]

There are projections based on sound data that nationalistic, right-wing and religious populations will greatly expand in the world and that Christianity/Islam will make significant gains (see also: Desecularization).[3][4][5] Eastern Orthodox Christianity is surging in Eastern/Central Europe too (see: Central and Eastern Europe and desecularization). In addition, Putin and the Russian Orthodox Church have a lot of power in Russia and about 66% of Russia is Eastern/Russian Orthodox.[6]

And in China (and to a less extent Asia), evangelical Christianity is seeing explosive growth (see: Growth of Christianity in China and Ethnic Chinese and the rise of Christianity in Southeast Asia).Conservative (talk) 15:30, 11 January 2018 (EST)

HERE is an interesting article on Aleksandr Dugin and the extent of his current influence.

Also, due to depressed oil prices, Western sanctions and other factors, it looks like China may have significantly more power in the 21st century than Russia (see also: Asian Century). And if Christianity keeps up its explosive growth in China, this could be a very significant development in terms of Christian influence in the Eurasian world.Conservative (talk)

Based on what I've read from your reply, it appears that you are on the right track to figuring out just what is going to happen geopolitically in Europe and Asia.

One of the reasons why I believe people like Bannon are so important right now is because they think in terms of geopolitics. Bannon is not advocating economic nationalism out of ideology. Andrew Breitbart wouldn't have hired him had he actually believed in economic nationalism as a political ideology. No, Bannon advocates economic nationalism because he believes that we are headed towards a geopolitical storm so severe that we will see a Second Cold War -- if not a Third World War -- break out within -- at most -- the next 15 years. And we will need to convert our economy into a war economy to win this conflict. See John Xenakis' "Generational Dynamics" website for more details. Breitbart has been constantly republishing articles from that site. Personally, I believe that this geopolitical storm will be a merger of four different conflicts into one gigantic conflict. One conflict will start in Europe, another will start in the Middle East, a third will start in Russia, and a fourth will start in East Asia.

In Europe, the conflict that will join the storm will be the collapse of the European Union. As more right-wing nationalist parties come to power and/or more countries vote to leave the EU, the main European powers -- particularly Germany -- will become increasingly erratic in their foreign policy. They will do whatever they can to keep the EU from collapsing for both economic and geopolitical reasons. These measures will include the proposed EU army that Merkel has been advocating. Over time, tensions will continue to grow in Europe, and the chances of hot war will increase.

In the Middle East, the conflict that will join the storm will be the Saudi-Turkish conflict. No, that is not a typo. While the media has been focusing on tensions between Saudi Arabia and Iran, it has constantly ignored the elephant in the room: Saudi Arabia and Turkey have gone from allies to enemies over the course of the last year. Saudi Arabia has been down-spiraling economically due to increased military spending and falling oil prices. Meanwhile, Turkey is a rising power. As a result, the two countries are competing for hegemony in the Sunni world. This conflict is the reason the Qatar crisis broke out. It was never about Qatar's support of terrorism. Saudi Arabia is governed by supporters of the Wahhabis, who by nature are radical jihadists. Turkey on the other hand is governed by supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood, who are also by nature radical jihadists. Qatar is also governed by supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood. Despite both factions being Sunni, they have historically been enemies because only one can be in control of the global caliphate. Because Qatar is pro-Muslim Brotherhood, Saudi Arabia sees Qatar as a serious threat to its ability to assert Wahhabi dominance of the Gulf States. Hence its attempts to isolate it and force it out of Turkey's sphere of influence. Before the Qatar crisis began, Turkey was on the fence but leaning towards the Saudi camp in the Saudi-Iranian conflict. Now, Turkey is firmly in the pro-Iran camp, as is Qatar. And the three countries are teaming up together to finish Saudi Arabia off once and for all. Perhaps this is the reason why Trump has supposedly done a complete 180 on Saudi Arabia, which he once blamed for 9/11. He knows Saudi Arabia is a bad guy, but because it is weakening, he wants to use it as a buffer state to prevent either Turkey or Iran from expanding into the Arabian peninsula (both are already expanding into the Levant) and creating a supercaliphate.

In Russia, the conflict that will join the storm will be a conflict between rival factions of right-wing nationalists. Right now, Russia is at a crossroads. It is becoming a bulwark for both traditional Christianity and Eurasianism. Simultaneously. Since those two ideologies are fundamentally opposed to one another, a split in Putin's big tent of right-wing nationalists is inevitable. Russia will be forced to choose between restoring its status as a traditional Christian nation, and restoring its historic empire. I believe that eventually, these tensions will become severe enough to spark a Second Russian Civil War. On one side will be the "Traditional Christians," and on the other side will be the "Eurasianists" -- a coalition of Russian imperialists, neo-Communists, neo-Fascists, Islamists, and ethnic minorities of Turkic descent, all who wish to create a Eurasian empire. As Russia destabilizes, the war will become a proxy war of a scale never before seen. The Visegrad countries will be backing the Traditional Christians for ideological reasons. Turkey will be backing the Eurasianists, both for ideological reasons and because Erdogan will see this conflict as an opportunity to become the seat of a Turkic empire and expand his supercaliphate into the Caucasus and Central Asia. China will be backing the Eurasianists for similar reasons as the Turks. And the EU will back the Eurasianists in order to prevent a regime friendly to the Visegrad countries from coming to power in Russia. This conflict will likely be the bloodiest of the four conflicts in the geopolitical storm, because it is the conflict most likely to see the use of nuclear weapons. It is likely that both sides in the Russian Civil War will be armed with nuclear weapons, and will use them against each other. The Russian people will live the worst possible scenario Russia could have faced during the Cold War -- a nuclear war where Russia is destroyed but the US survives. And because Russia has a first strike policy for any country that tries to invade it, and the conflict likely will spill over, we likely will see a large number of countries that border Russia try to get nuclear weapons as quickly as possible during this conflict. Don't be surprised if countries like Germany, Poland, Turkey, and Japan end up devloping nuclear weapons by the time this conflict is over.

And in East Asia, China is slowly collapsing from the inside. Resistance to the Communist regime is growing not just due to the rise of Christianity, but also because of economic woes. Income inequality between the coastal regions and the interior regions has grown dramatically in post-Mao China. As its internal woes grow, look for China becoming increasingly nationalistic and erratic in its foreign policy, picking fights with Taiwan, India, Japan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, the Philippines, Mongolia, and Russia. We will have to address this eventually.

In the end, I predict that the new geopolitical alignment will pit the US, "Free Europe," the traditional Russian Christians, India, and Japan against the EU, China, the Russian Eurasianists, and Turkey. And the conflict will be long and bloody. --Geopolitician (talk) 12:29, 13 January 2018 (EST)