Difference between revisions of "Talk:Desecularization"

Revision as of 14:59, May 19, 2024

Oh, c'mon. Can we at least agree upon the fact that secularism (when implemented properly) is a good thing. This is not something to celebrate. Please go back to the 7th century where you belong.

Secularism is never (or rarely) implemented neutrally. For example, invariably evolutionism, which is an atheistic creation myth, is pushed in societies that espouse secularism (see: Evolution as a secular origins myth). Often there are various secular leftist suppressions of religion in the public square (for example, high school seniors being forbidden to express their Christian faith in their valedictorian speeches; employess being told they cannot wear crosses; the banning of head scarves, etc.).

Regardless, due to demographics (fertility rates) and other factors, the current global trends point to a more religious/conservative/right-wing age for the foreseeable future (see: A religious, conservative age is rising and its only beginning). In addition, religious fundamentalism is expected to grow due to their higher fertility rates (see also: Atheism and fertility rates). Wikignome72 (talk) 09:28, 17 November 2017 (EST)

Desecularization of politics in heavily Islamic countries isn't a good thing. In the greater Middle East region (and especially central asia), frankly, it's in the best interests of minority religious groups in those countries (Christians, Atheists, Zoroastrians, etc) that the government remain secular instead of caving to populist Islamic movements like Whabbism, Hizb ut-Tahir, and Akramiya[1]. Trends show increased Islamist radicalization in Southern Kyrgyzstan as the population desecularizes. Many ISIS fighters are from Uzbekistan & Kyrgyzstan. This is not a good thing.[2]--IluvAviation (talk) 21:39, 9 August 2017 (EDT)

Here is my take on it: Sharia Law is obviously terrible, but it is also terrible when countries make laws, like France, which ban religious people from expressing their religion/faith in public. If by "secularization" people mean the state secularism of France, count me out. --1990'sguy (talk) 21:45, 9 August 2017 (EDT)

By government remain secular, I mean Islam should not be declared the official state religion; people should still be allowed to pray in public and such. The persecution of Jehovahs witnesses in central asia is wrong, but declaring Islam the official state religion won't make anything better. Remember Andijon in 2005? That almost happened in Uzbekistan. The Boston bombers were from Kyrgyzstan, and so was the St. Petersburg metro bomber. Akrom Yo‘ldoshev's political ideology of Islamic Socialism spread like wildfire throughout the Fergana Valley (a major source of Islamic extremism). The terrorist pamphlet Yimonga Yul openly advocated for local Islamic governance of all politics. The rise of populist political Islamism is not a thing to be celebrated.--IluvAviation (talk) 21:07, 10 August 2017 (EDT)

Berger on desecularization

Good source as far as Peter Berger on desecularization: Peter Berger and the Rise and Fall of the Theory of Secularization by Dylan Reaves, Denison University, 2012 Conservative (talk) 12:52, 1 March 2019 (EST)

Fergusen

Atheist Niall Ferguson is cited as some sort of expert on the declining population of atheist-controlled China; perhaps some more context is in order. RobS^{Ich bin ein breakfast taco} 00:53, September 16, 2022 (EDT)

Why? The base rate is 50% based on United Nations statistics which the Harvard University historian Ferguson cites. And the UN is fairly China-friendly. Ferguson indicates that China's population is expected to drop between 50-75%. All the sources I have come across say that China is expected to have a big drop in its population. Conservative (talk) 01:09, September 16, 2022 (EDT)

That's the missing context then that should be added. To attribute all that, to an obviously self-deceived atheist, shoots yourself in the foot. RobS^{Ich bin ein breakfast taco} 01:30, September 16, 2022 (EDT)

IOWs, something like, "According to UN bla bla bla bla, which even Harvard historian Niall Fergusen agrees with...." or words to that effect. Citing Fergusen as the sole authority is self-contradictory. RobS^{Ich bin ein breakfast taco} 01:33, September 16, 2022 (EDT)

Note: It wouldn't be such a problem if the Niall Fergusen article were expanded and balanced; however clicking on the link, anyone can see the Fergusen article is an attack page created specifically to discredit him solely on the basis of Fergusen being an atheist. RobS^{Ich bin ein breakfast taco} 01:39, September 16, 2022 (EDT)

Now I've read two of Fergusen's books, the one on the Rothschild family and his History of MI5 (which is extremely hard to find). Both I found invaluable resources, and his bio page here does not do him justice. RobS^{Ich bin ein breakfast taco} 01:42, September 16, 2022 (EDT)

I like Ferguson. Citing him admitting a big drop in Chinese atheism is an example of using a hostile witness to make a point as he is an atheist himself. When a hostile witness admits something detrimental to "his side", it is usually deemed especially credible.

I incorporated your suggestion. Conservative (talk) 02:17, September 16, 2022 (EDT)

Yah, looks more thoroughly researched now. RobS^{Ich bin ein breakfast taco} 06:08, September 16, 2022 (EDT)

Desecularization article

There are some beautiful churches in Russia.

Question: Is the new military-related church that was recently built, the biggest church in Russia now? My guess is probably no - even though it is a big church.

Also, Conservapedia's desecularization article ranks #3 for that term. Some of your recent edits related to Russia helped improve the article. Thanks.

I want to put a picture of the most grand Russian Orthodox Church and replace the picture of Putin. I am obviously not against Putin helping to expand the number of churches, but it would be nice to have the most beautiful and grand Russian Orthodox Church in Russia in the article. It would make the article more attractive and help increase its Google ranking and page views. Conservative (talk) 04:57, December 17, 2023 (EST)

(ec) Conservapedia:Guidelines specifically instruct you to use the article talk page for content disputes, not spam, trolling, off topic subjects and personal attacks/abuse. Just cause you are an Admin does not give you the right to routinely violate CP Guidelines. It is a horrible example to set to non-Admins. Please open your talk page for any personal, non-article specific content related discussion with me or ANY other user. That is what your user talk page is for. Thank you. RobS^{Zelensky didn't kill himself} 05:02, December 17, 2023 (EST)

Since the article is on desecularization, I am putting a new church in the article.

Namely this one:

Cathedral of the Armed Forces outside Moscow, completed in 2020.

That is a good example of desecularization post Soviet Union.

But I am going to try to find a better picture of that church. Conservative (talk) 05:03, December 17, 2023 (EST)

That photo looks like it was taken on a cloudy day with no direct sunlight.

Sundance of the The Conservative Treehouse dropped these photos today. [3] RobS^{Zelensky didn't kill himself} 05:08, December 17, 2023 (EST)

Cathedral of the Armed Forces outside Moscow, completed in 2020.

Got rid of fuzzy picture of the church and replaced it with this clear picture of the church in the relevant Conservapedia articles. Conservative (talk) 06:20, December 17, 2023 (EST)

I like an aerial picture better - it shows more of the scale of the project. RobS^{Zelensky didn't kill himself} 06:25, December 17, 2023 (EST)

Inside the cathedral there is large keyboard where you can input your family name and relatives who died in the war come up on a large screen. Virtually every family in Russia has someone who died in the Great Patriotic War. RobS^{Zelensky didn't kill himself} 06:31, December 17, 2023 (EST)

Afghan heroin production

Wow. So in the 1990s the Taliban eradicated 95% of the heroin crop, under the US/CIA it flourished with the US/CIA being in control and profiting from the $60 billion a year global trade, and the Taliban again has given up the trade. So that's what the 20 year long occupation was all about. (Kinda reminds me of the Vietnam war when marijuana prices went from $10 an ounce to $20 overnite when the war ended, and $40 an ounce within 5 years. There was no domestic production at the time, so the country relied on imports from Mexico (lower quality) and Columbia (higher quality). Then, when a shipment of cocaine from Columbia could bring $12,000 a kilo instead of just $2,000 for marijuana in the late 1970s, the switch to higher profitability was on - despite the jail times being the same regardless if you got caught with a plane load of refer or coke. The country didn't have a dope problem before the Vietnam war, but that's the war's legacy. And it was the CIA and US government behind it all along).

This also explains why the FDA has approved more powerful opioids - so Big Pharma can pick up the slack in the $60 billion a year market. And it's all legal.

I knew it all along - the US government is the biggest dope dealer on the planet. RobS^{Zelensky didn't kill himself} 06:04, December 17, 2023 (EST)

Looks like desecularization is losing in NATO allied Poland

Catholic Poland is losing to the neocon Russophobes. [4] RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 00:55, May 19, 2024 (EDT)

Poland is currently primarily a Catholic country that recently experienced significant scandals relating to priest pedophilia scandals. In 2021, Poland's fertility rate was 1.3 people which is far below a replacement level of 2.1 births per woman. Poland is beginning to experience growing labor shortages and generally the business class has the most clout in non-communist countries. In addition, pension systems need workers to keep the systems afloat.

"In the midst of a decade-long economic boom, Poland is increasingly calling on workers from Asia to cope with a growing labor shortage, particularly in construction and agriculture. In the summer of 2023, images of a container village supposed to host some 6,000 Asian workers on the site of a refinery caused a public outcry. As Warsaw has no bilateral agreements with other countries, this large-scale temporary employment practice, intended to be short-term, is becoming increasingly common.

Recent years have seen an unprecedented increase in workers from India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, the Philippines and Kazakhstan. As Dominika Pszczolkowska, from Warsaw University's migration research center, said, "This is a new and highly exponential phenomenon, but relatively marginal compared with workers from former Soviet Union countries. Migration from these countries is on the decline, hence the need for Asian labor." In 2022, Poland issued work permits to 41,000 Indians, 20,000 Nepalese and 22,000 Filipinos. The number of workers from Ukraine is currently estimated at 1.5 million."[5]

All of the above countries that are bolded are highly religious. And due to the growing worker talent/recruiting war happening between countries needing workers and people for their pension systems, countries that offer more than temporary work permits (namely, citizenship and permanent residency) will have a competitive advantage and Poland will have to compete. Given that 98% of the world population growth is happening in religious countries[6], immigration to less religious countries from religious countries is bound to happen.

While among countries with a sub-replacement level of births, it is true that Hungary/Poland have been more resistant to immigration, pressure from the highly influential business classes and the pension system needing workers will build up and will have to be paid attention to as companies needing workers and the outcry caused by old people being homeless due to an inadequate pension system would cause a huge amount of political pressure to politicians. Conservative (talk) 10:28, May 19, 2024 (EDT)

TL;DR. 2,800 bytes of spam. You should learn to interact with other editors civilly. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 10:31, May 19, 2024 (EDT)

While among countries with a sub-replacement level of births, it is true that Hungary/Poland have been more resistant to immigration, pressure from the highly influential business classes and the pension system needing workers will build up and will have to be paid attention to as companies needing workers and the outcry caused by old people being homeless due to an inadequate pension system would cause a huge amount of political pressure to politicians.

Furthermore, in 2022, Pew Research reported: "Looking at the experience of 80 countries, we find that the share of people who were raised as Christians and switch away from Christianity has not risen much above 50% anywhere, even in highly secular Western European countries. For American Christians concerned about these trends, that could be the demographic good news of the day. If there truly is a floor under Christian retention rates, the net movement from the ranks of Christian to the ranks of the religiously unaffiliated eventually may stop."[7]

Desecularization caused by the religious having more kids within a country doesn't happen overnight, but it is powerful (American Amish double every 20 years).

Steve Turley indicates:

"In Europe, immigration is making the continent more religiously conservative, not less; in fact, London and Paris are some of the most religiously dense areas within their respective populations. In Britain, for example, Ultra-Orthodox or Haredi Jews constitute only 17 percent of the Jewish population but account for 75 percent of Jewish births. And in Israel, Haredi schoolchildren have gone from comprising a few percent to nearly a third of all Jewish pupils in a matter of five decades, and are poised to represent the majority of the Jewish population by 2050. Since 1970, charismatic Christians in Europe have expanded steadily at a rate of 4 percent per year, in step with Muslim growth. Currently, Laestadian Lutherans in Finland and Holland’s Orthodox Calvinists have a fertility advantage over their wider secular populations of 4:1 and 2:1 respectively.

In contrast, Kaufmann’s data projects that secularists, who consistently exemplify a low fertility rate of around 1.5 (significantly below the replacement level of 2.1), will begin a steady decline after 2030 to a mere 14 to 15 percent of the American population. Similar projections apply to Europe as well. Kaufmann thus appears to have identified what he calls "the soft underbelly of secularism," namely, demography. This is because secular liberalism entails its own “demographic contradiction,” the affirmation of the sovereign individual devoid of the restraints of classical moral structures necessitates the freedom not to reproduce. The link between sex and procreation having been broken, modernist reproduction translates into mere personal preference. It thus turns out that the radical individualism so celebrated and revered by contemporary secular propagandists is in fact the agent by which their ideology implodes (Bolding added for emphasis)."

Eric Kaufmann (and other scholars) predict a plateauing of the secular population happening by 2050 or sooner in the West and religious fundamentalism growing in the world.[8][9] Obviously, it is not 2050 yet.

Regarding religious fundamentalism, Kaufman wrote: "This much seems certain: without a new [secular liberal] ideology to inspire social cohesion, fundamentalism cannot be stopped. The religious shall inherit the earth."[10]

So far, Kaufmann has been right on the money in terms of forecasting. For example, on the abortion issue, Kaufmann stated about the USA: "In recent decades, white secularism has surged, but Latino and Asian religious immigration has taken up the slack, keeping secularism at bay. Across denominations, the fertility advantage of religious fundamentalists of all colours is significant and growing. After 2020, their demographic weight will begin to tip the balance in the culture wars towards the conservative side, ramping up pressure on hot-button issues such as abortion. By the end of the century, three quarters of America may be pro-life. Their activism will leap over the borders of the 'Redeemer Nation' to evangelize the world. Already, the rise of the World Congress of Families has launched a global religious right, its arms stretching across the bloody lines of the War on Terror to embrace the entire Abrahamic family." (bolding added for emphasis).[11]

Question: When was Roe vs. Wade overturned? It was overturned in 2022. When did Kaufmann say that demographic weight of pro-life people would start tipping the political scale. If you look above, he said "after 2020". So Kaufmann was excellent at forecasting. Conservative (talk) 10:59, May 19, 2024 (EDT)