Debate: Have the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen? Did Christ who cannot lie fail to fulfill his promise?

This is a non-denominational exchange of ideas intended to bring about a greater understanding of the Bible.
All views are welcome.

Texts:

• Matthew 16:13-19
  13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
  14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias or one of the prophets.
  15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
  16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
  17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
  18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter ["a rock"]. and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
  19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heave: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
• John 14:16-17
  16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
  17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
• John 16:12-15
  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
  All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
• Ephesians 2:18-22
  For through him we both [the Uncircumcision and the Circumcision] have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
  19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone. <be> In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
• 1 Timothy 3:14-15
  14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
  15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
• 1 Timothy 4:1-2
  1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
  2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
• Hebrews 13:7
  7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
• Hebrews 13:17
  17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
• 2 Peter 3:17
  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
• 1 John 2:18-19
  18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
  19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

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Yes, the gates of hell have prevailed against the church Jesus built on a rock so that it committed the Great Apostasy, and therefore Jesus obviously either was powerless to keep his promise or he lied.

You don't even understand the expression "gates of hell". Jesus said what he meant in an unusual way, probably to make it lively to the imagination.

He meant he had the devil on the run and in stronghold after stronghold (of the devil's) and in city after city (of the devil's), he and his disciples were breaking through, besieging the gates of hell to rescue the sinners inside, so "the gates of hell" were taking a beating, being broken, knocked over, bent and dented all over the place, passed through and its city's inhabitants rescued!

You're not in a position to know; you could mount an attack against a devil's stronghold anytime you want, but you try to abuse Conservapedia instead, and then because your attitude is so passive, you don't see that knowledge of anyone being rescued from Satan counts as his gates not prevailing and instead feel the need for us! to tell you what amounts to, in your ignorance, asking if it's even still happening or not! Newsflash!: Wherever those gates are being smashed into by groups of Christians of every stripe, the gates of hell are already failing to prevail!

The "Church" is not an "institution"; look what happens to people like you who think it is! Once again, you are completely wrong!

VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 22:16, 26 August 2020 (EDT)

One mediator

The Catechism of the Catholic Church in sum essentially reads,

• We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves

• 2 Corinthians 13:1 - This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
• 1 Timothy 2:5 - there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus

Official Roman Catholic teaching supplants the bible in authority (Catholic teaching believes :God's word is "evolving"), says

• CCC 1456 - "When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness for remission through the mediation of the priest".

Jesus says in the resurrection we are sexless:

• Matthew 22:30 - For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Yet the Roman Catholic church teaches

• CCC 969 - "the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."
• Isaiah 28:14 - we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves

Salvation by grace

God says,

• Ephesians 2:8 - by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
• Acts 19:2 - “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

However Roman Catholic catechism teaches that grace and salvation is earned, and that the Holy spirit is given through water baptism.

• CCC 1999 - “infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism.”
• CCC 2010 - “Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.
• Isaiah 28:14 - we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves

No, the gates of hell have never prevailed against the church Jesus built on a rock so that it never committed apostasy from the faith, because Jesus remains with the church always to the end of the world, and the Spirit of truth is with the church for ever leading into all the truth as Jesus promised, and Jesus is God Who cannot lie.

User: IndependentSkeptic

• According to the above argument, the gates of hell have prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, and therefore it cannot be the pillar and ground of the truth as Paul testified it is. Your position is that Jesus failed to fulfill his promise. You make Jesus out to be a liar. That is antichrist.
• Jesus said by his own divine authority that the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church he built.
• But you say it happened.
• Jesus said by his own divine authority that he is with us (addressed to the apostles) always, to the end of the world.
• But you say he did not remain always with their appointed apostolic successors in the church he founded, the church that still exists to this day.
• Jesus said another Counsellor, the Spirit of truth given by the Father would be with us for ever, and that the Spirit of truth would guide us into all the truth.
• But you say he did not remain with the church for ever, and did not continuously guide the church into all the truth for ever, from the time of the apostles to this present day.
• Paul said the church is the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom we also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
• But you say the church is no longer the pillar of the truth and a holy temple in the Lord and a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. And you say that the same church as identified by an unbroken continuous line of apostolic succession is built on the lies and blasphemies of Satan, and not the truth.
• Paul said in the church God has appointed apostles, prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, healers, helpers, administrators, and speakers in various languages; and that in the church are bishops, presbyteroi (priests/elders), and deacons.
• But you say these are done away by the Bible as the sole rule of faith and authority.
• Paul said that all authority is established by God, and whoever resists authority resists what God has established, and that those who resist what God has established will be condemned.
• But you say that true Christians are duty-bound to resist the established authority of the church when they personally judge that it is wrong, and not to listen.
• Peter said to submit to the elders and be clothed with humility, for God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble, and therefore to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God that in due time he may exalt you.
• But you say we are not obligated to submit to others' authority.
• The Letter to the Hebrews says to obey our leaders who spoke the word of God to us, in the historical context, those leaders of the existing church in the first century established since the time of the apostles.
• But you say we should disobey the leaders of the church who have preserved the Bible and draw doctrine directly from it as the word of God that they speak in every celebration of the Catholic Mass.
• Jesus said that anyone who will not listen to the church is to be rejected as the Jews rejected tax collectors and pagans, and said that whoever has an ear is to listen to what the Spirit says to the churches.
• But you praise those who did not and do not listen to the church Jesus built on a rock and who did not and do not listen to the churches that have continually existed since the first century, both at the time John wrote the book of Revelation and since that time to the present day.
• Jesus said that unless a man is regenerated by water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Paul washed away his sins by being baptized, and Peter said that baptism saves now; and Paul, again, that God saves us in virtue of his own mercy by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, and that God loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
• But you say that baptism does not save and does not regenerate and does not cleanse away sin or wash away sin by water and the word.
• James says that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
• But you say that faith alone justifies, not works.
• Jesus and Paul both say that all will be judged according to their works.
• But you say no believer saved by faith alone will be judged.
• Jesus said to the apostles, "Whosesoever sins you forgive are forgiven, and whosesoever sins you retain are retained." The entire context of the New Testament warns that we can fall away and forfeit eternal life by mortal sins "unto death", but that we can be brought back by confession to those entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation and absolution as ambassadors of God, God speaking by them, for if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. It was not to them alone that it was said, but to us on whom the end of the ages has come.
• But you say that this is idolatry and a demonic doctrine, that no one has been given the power of God to forgive sins.
• Jesus said that his flesh and blood are real food and drink, and that unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you do not have life in you, and that whoever eats his flesh and drinks his blood has eternal life. (the word for "eat" trogŏn τρώώγων in John 6:27-58 is not figurative in the Greek text, but only literal and physical in meaning)
• But you say this is only a metaphor and does not and never did literally mean eating and drinking his flesh and blood, and that communion does not give eternal life.

Catholics believe the word of Christ and what he promised forever.

For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why we utter the Amen through him, to the glory of God. But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us; he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
—2 Corinthians 1:20-22

From the first century to the present day there have been those who disobeyed their leaders who spoke the word of God, rejected the traditions of the apostles, and insisted on private interpretation of the scriptures, who went out and taught a different gospel than the one delivered to them by their teachers, and who by this visible pattern of behavior showed that they were antichrists.
According to history the Catholic Church dominated and led by its leaders as shepherds of the flock having established authority to make disciples of all nations, was not founded by those who disobeyed, went out, and taught a different gospel from the one they had been taught. The question of who has the true doctrine of Christ is settled by scripture, as outlined above. Ask this question about those who founded your church, and about those who do not profess any particular church but claim the authority of the Bible alone as interpreted by themselves: did they and do they disbelieve and disobey Hebrews 13:7,17; Galatians 1:6-9; 1 John 2:18-19; John 14:16; 16:13 and 15:1-6. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 08:00, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

You've insisted over and over again that the Catholic Church is an institution of sinful men led by sinful men. OK, Peter says to "obey every human institution' RSV "submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake" KJV - part of the whole passage in the Bible of 1 Peter 2:13-17. So where do you get off saying it's right to not submit and not obey sinful men leading the Catholic Church? As Dataclarifier pointed out, the Catholic Church wasn't founded by anybody disobeying and refusing to submit to the leaders of their church and went out and taught a different doctrine than what they'd been taught and established a different church. It's the Church, so obey. You say it's a human institution, so obey. You're stuck in the fact you disobey even the Bible here. It doesn't matter if there are weeds among the wheat. They both are to grow together until the harvest. Obey the Bible and obey the Church. Not those who left. It's had authority for a long time. And every authority is established by God, and whoever resists the authority resists God. Romans 13. Those who left are antichrist. 1 John 2:18-19. So whichever way you turn, the Bible says to obey, but you don't want to. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 09:43, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

Your whole argument appears to put words in one's mouh. Another deceptive lie. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 09:57, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

Let's isolate this question I/S asks:

• So where do you get off saying it's right to not submit and not obey sinful men leading the Catholic Church?

I'm sure we'll have more to say about it later. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 10:42, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

You use the Bible to contradict the Church and condemn it and its teaching which is from the Bible. Well, I've known a lot people who cited the Bible so that it even contradicts itself and say, "There! You see? It contradicts itself and even praises murderers and liars and adulterers. So the Bible can't be true! And you're an idiot if you think it is!" They abuse the Bible so they don't have to accept it. You do the same thing. You use the Bible against the Church. Well, the Bible can be used against you. And it can be used to support the Catholic Church. And it has and it does. I read it. When I found out what the Catholic Church actually teaches I was convicted of error and could see for myself from the Bible itself that it is the one true Church. Jesus is no liar. Who are you to say He did not fulfill his promise? I have an idea who you are, and it ain't good. Why should we listen to you when you won't even listen to the Bible? I think what Gamaliel said to the Sanhedrin applies to you, "IF it is of God, you cannot defeat it. You may even find yourself fighting against God." Acts 5:33-39. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 10:12, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

You use the Bible to twist God's word into lies. The Roman Catholic church rejects the authority of the Bible in favor of sinful men, i.e. the Magisterium. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 10:26, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

See also

• Debate:Does the Catholic Church have the biblical authority of Christ Himself to preach and to teach the truth forever?
• Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?
• Debate: Is the Magisterium infallible?
• Debate: Is Roman Catholic teaching on the Holy Spirit biblical?
• Debate: Infant baptism
• Debate: Is there a Purgatory before Judgment Day
• Debate:Is Holy Communion the True Body and Precious Blood of Jesus Christ
• Salvation: declarational salvation and ontological salvation
• Ex opere operato and ex opere operantis
• Eternal security (salvation)
• Antinomianism