Difference between revisions of "Conservapedia talk:User complaints"

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[[Conservapedia talk:User complaints/Archives]]
 
[[Conservapedia talk:User complaints/Archives]]
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== Suggestion ==
 
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A user complaint page is a good idea. My only suggestion is to make up more constructive and positive. For example, call it a User feedback page instead. Taking this approach could make the content produced more constructive and avoid unconstructive bellyaching and whining. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 01:11, February 27, 2023 (EST)
 
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:That's what we want, all the unconstructive bellyaching and whining, and ganging up on an individual editor on one page, rather than the routine habit of allowing it on Talk page discussions we've had for years on end now. That's why I suggested "kangaroo court" to give the appearance of having some final word without actually having authority.
 
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:As soon as an editor deviates from the topic on a Talk page discussion with personal accusations about a users conduct or ideological leanings, we cut n paste the comment and move it here, and let the trolls thrash it out. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 01:56, February 27, 2023 (EST)
 
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::For example, let's take a certain unnamed editor whose initials begin with L and end with T, learned all sorts of bad habits of mixing the subject of a discussion with personal attacks and innuendo on other users. He learned it here  in CP first, and perfected it at RW. (That unnamed editor was a babe in arms 15 years ago). And he learned it here first BECAUSE CP allowed RW trolls 15 years ago to shape CP's user conduct policies. Rather than ever address the problem with policies and a structure to handle the problem, CP just blocked editors en masse, destroyed its own user base, and never addressed the simple problem of regulating user conduct. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 02:05, February 27, 2023 (EST)
 
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:For 15 years now, even in the Admin community, it has been impossible to even have a policy discussion, because as soon as anyone makes a proposal, his motivations and ideology are attacked (i.e., the individual user himself is attacked with accusations and innuendo) and the proposal itself never even gets discussed. This sheer lunacy needs to end, or at least be regulated somehow. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 02:14, February 27, 2023 (EST)
 
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:This insanity of "I don't like or I oppose contributions because User:XYZ said it or did it," came from Ratrolls, and CP Admin adopted the exact same attitude, and made it law, paying no regard to the merits of contributions or proposals. You should know that yourself, the way you are treated and regarded at RW. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 02:27, February 27, 2023 (EST)
 
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==User:VargasMilan==
 
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basically, it is User:Vargasmilan's responsibility to initiate a case here from the Community Portal. Let's remain neutral and not act as advocates for a complaining editor. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 14:12, March 6, 2023 (EST)
 
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:Let's not get bogged down in fueling frivolous complaints. The purpose of this page is twofold: (1) To educate readers on CP Guidelines and improve editor interaction, cooperation, and conduct; (2) this is place for frivolous food fights to come and die. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup>
 
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== Name change ==
 
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I suggest renaming this “administrator’s notice board” instead of “user complaints” to be more in like with the site we’re supposed to be an alternative to. Quit trying to replicate a rat nest’s failed ideas, the rats gave up on the Chicken Coop for good reason. They are pathetic, and trying to replicate them is more pathetic.  [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 10:51, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:Given recent events, how about "Third-rate, childish bellyaching/whining and bragging that Andy Schlafly ignores and User: LT mocks". [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 10:55, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::Or just rename it to "whine cellar" since it was RobSmith who created this page in the first place. XD —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>Rev. 22:13</sup>]]''''' Friday, 11:17, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::I like that. That's a good one. [[Conservapedia:Whine Cellar]]. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 11:31, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::And if no on listens to your complaints there, you can still always go to [[Conservapedia:Kangaroo Court]]. We may eventually make it part of the Appeals process. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 11:35, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::::How about this: Aschlafly blocks all three of you under 90/10, deletes this silly page, deletes all of the “atheists are fat” pages, and Conservapedia returns to its goal of being a Wikipedia alternative for Conservatives and homeschoolers, and we promote Conservapedia to those audiences instead of using entertainment to draw numbers like the paganistic mega churches do? If numbers are all we care about, I can upload a picture of Brooke’s knockers, that will get us page views for sure (that’s sarcasm; she is beautiful but given I’ve not even seen her uncovered you can imagine I would never do that). However, those won’t be quality page views. I’m a Republican Executive Committee member and a member of an IFB church, nobody in either circle have even heard of Conservapedia. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 12:12, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::Who's going to contribute anything significant to the mainspace with all of us three blocked? ''You''? —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>Rev. 22:13</sup>]]''''' Friday, 12:25, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::Maybe, because maybe then people would take the site seriously again.  Nothing personal against you LT, but Rob trying to imitate the rat nest combined with all of these quantity over quality pages (especially the ones in which Conservative engages the rat nest; I’ve done my share of trolling the rat nest, though not as much as I get accused of, yet I never spill the drama to Conservapedia or Wikipedia except to purge the sites of that garbage because it’s off-mission and unprofessional) are making this site into a circus. I have better things to do than contribute to a site that no one takes seriously. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 13:04, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::::This page exists to keep all the whining and crying off Andy talk. If you wanna b*tch about another editor, this is the place to do it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 13:09, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::::Yeah, just like the chicken coop at the rat nest, which they pretty much quit using because it was nothing but drama. Really email to Andy is the way to deal with it, not a bunch of unprofessional bickering on the open internet. Have you not heard of praising in public while correcting in private? Seriously Rob, I lost respect for you when it became apparent that you propose every bad idea that the worthless, piece of garbage rat nest gave up on (remember when you suggested we copy the vandal bin that they no longer use and tolerate trolls which turned into a zoo over there?) Oh, and allowing VPNs so that the trolls can hop all over the world and laugh at us is stupid. Why not propose we copy something useful, like the edit filter?[[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 13:20, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::::::No. I don't like the idea of having to Lock Andy's talk page to keep trolls off of it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 13:23, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::::::It is what it is Rob, notice that your rat nest that you look to as an example has resorted to locking their complaint boards and most of the moderators’ talk pages to keep trolls off of it. If you want to stop trolls without protecting pages, hard block anything resembling a server farm and soft block the trolls’ residential ranges so they can’t make accounts. Wikipedia does it. Fandom does it. Even the rat nest has moved in that direction. Why are we moving in the other direction? Because we like failure? [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 13:30, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::::::::Page Protect has proven to be a more effective tool against vandalism. Andy agrees, but I'll let him speak for himself. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 13:36, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::::::::Range blocks? I can't speak on that cause I'm not technically qualified. I proposed some time ago to form a committee with you and Davidb4 to handle that stuff. (But what happened? A clique of conspirators where more focused on ganging up on other editors than solving problems). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 13:39, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::::::(ec) The problem we have at Conservapedia, without naming names, is TOO MANY editors who learned everything they know from Ratvandals - forming little cliques of conspirators to gang up on other editors - and not focused on working together to add content. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 13:35, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::::::I used to do range blocks, you opined (right around when it was getting harder for the trolls to hop around due to most of the server ranges being blocked), Andy agreed, and I became less active here because I’m not playing the same game of whack-a-mole I o ccasionally play the mole in on the rat nest. It’s his site, he can do what he wants, but I’m not going to be part of that silliness.  [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 13:56, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::::::::We've done maybe 2 or 3 legitimate troll blocks in the past 8 months or so (instead of a half dozen daily when Karajou got an endorphin rush by provoking them to play whack-a-mole). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 14:36, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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Andy doesn't want a lot of spurious blocking of editors. If he did, he would rename the wiki "Karajoupedia". [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 14:01, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:At least a Karajoupedia would prevent the Robsofascist takeover Conservapedia has experienced for the past two years. —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>Rev. 22:13</sup>]]''''' Friday, 15:34, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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===Digression on Ratvandals===
 
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::::::::Like I said, it’s his site, he can do what he wants, but allowing trolls free rein has proven to be a train wreck. Praise God that the troll Dyskliver was nipped in the bud (by me, thanks to technical evidence showing him socking) before this be-kind-to-the-trolls mentality took over. He is a serious creep, and he managed to get on the rat nest’s corporate board of directors. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 14:07, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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He got on RWs board of directors? How did [https://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_obesity#Trent_Toulouse_.28one_of_the_founders_of_the_website_RationalWiki.29 Trent Toulouse] allow that to happen? Oh, I almost forgot. Being obese [https://www.conservapedia.com/Health_risks_linked_to_obesity#cite_note-9 does impair brain performance!!!]
 
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First I heard the wacko [[GrammarCommie]] got on the RW board of directors and now this! See also: [[Atheism and mental illness]]. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 14:34, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:Oh yeah, GrammarCommie is a complete lunatic. He wasn't completely terrible from the summer of 2020 to the spring of 2021, though afterwards descended into acute derangement. —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>Rev. 22:13</sup>]]''''' Friday, 15:32, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::Maybe some [[critical thinking|critical thinker]] sockpuppet in the Saloon Bar drove him into total madness! What a world, what a world. Who would have thought a Conservapedian like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness?”  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 15:38, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::Hmm, yes, my sockpuppets shook up RationalWiki for some time. To my admission in retrospect, the summer of 2021 was a time of great boredom, during which I devoted plenty of time to volunteering and internet trolling. It was a challenge controlling two distinct personalities at that time, yet somehow I persisted for months without being outright exposed. I still recall when PanGalacticGargleBlaster raised up the possibility that my main account at the time could be a sockpuppet, yet ultimately failed to conclusively pounce on that speculation. And the other account was to gain a few laughs by posting a wide assortment of jargon and gibberish just to observe their reactions. Most hilarious was when their entire community spent the entire day debating a chicken coup d'état against the sockpuppet, thereby demonstrating their own stupidity in that a random internet loon outsmarted those jeniuses into jumping in a whirlpool. —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>Rev. 22:13</sup>]]''''' Friday, 16:05, September 15, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::::Rat-Wiki is stupid, period. They can't tell trolls apart from each other (they think I am Grawp... lol), and sometimes can't tell good faith editors from bad faith editors. Plus it's widely known that people have multiple accounts there, which raises an interesting question as to whether those people are voting for board members more than once. But while we're on the topic of that sewer, why do we have an article on GrammarCommie? He is a loser. Conservapedia is an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias don't cover random losers. We are not Rat-Wiki. RE: Trent Toulouse's weight, I'm pretty sure his weight has nothing to do with his idiocy, but he's not even very active there anymore unless he has a sock, as Rob has proposed. Seriously though, why do we even talk about those losers on here? We used to have a policy against that. We need to return to those days. I only brought them up (referring to them as a rat nest because that's what they are) because of Rob trying to imitate them, which is retarded. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 07:32, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::::I think Trent possibly operates with a network of socks. In my time there as the "history expert," initially it was Flandres that suddenly became active in constantly engaging with me. Then it became Plutocow, who relatively quickly became an administrator after account creation and was a site "expert" and someone to stifle my activities. In later months, Flandres always reappeared after hiatuses at suspiciously convenient moments, constantly to take swipes at me, and especially during votes. When ATIM cases were brought against me, it was often the same gang that piled against me so consistently and vociferously: Bongolian, Spud, Flandres, and Plutocow. If they're not all socks of Trent Toulouse, the people running them must belong to the "Trentist" pseudo-school of thought and are directly trained by him. The events definitely did not appear coincidental.
 
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:::::There were also parallels between the suspected RW Trent socks and suspected Conservapedia Trent socks: both Flandres on RationalWiki and [[Special:Contributions/Mr. Nationalist|Mr. Nationalist]] on CP brought up [[Howard W. Smith]]; the CP article was created by Mr. Nationalist, and Flandres in a debate on conservative Democrats brought up Smith in an eerily similar manner. And yet another key example: on Conservapedia some time ago, I created a userbox saying I'm not a populist, and Mr. Nationalist subsequently created a userbox stating the opposite, but copying my entire template formatting. Likewise, in my last essay on RationalWiki as the "history expert," Plutocow in the talk page lazily mocked me on the talk by copy/pasting the writing style of my reply. IOWs, a "Trentist" characteristic would be lazily mocking an opponent by straight-up copy/pasting the substance of their insertions while stating the opposite opinion.
 
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:::::And on a complete side note, regarding that latter "Trentist" characteristic I detailed, RobSmith does that exact same thing, sometimes while ''accusing me of adopting RationalWiki characteristics.'' If that doesn't constitute irony, I don't know what does. —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>Rev. 22:13</sup>]]''''' Sunday, 01:27, September 17, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:Hillary Clinton is a loser. The loser Adolf Hitler caused Germany to get into a pointless war and then he killed himself. Joe Biden is a loser with a low presidential approval rating.  We have lots of articles on losers. Unfortunately, the world has a lot of losers and a fairly high percentage of losers. And these losers adversely affect the world.
 
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:Also, atheism has had a pernicious effect on the world and although atheist websites have lost a lot of traffic post 2011 and post pandemic, RW is still one of the most popular atheist-leaning websites. Furthermore, CP's atheism articles still get a lot of traffic. For example, the main atheism article gets about 10,000+ hits a month plus we have over 1,900+ atheism articles that also get a lot of traffic. When websites cover a niche and a significant portion of their traffic comes from a niche, the more comprehensively they cover that niche, the better it is for the website. In addition, Andy likes that my articles attract secular left leaning web visitors because he wants a website that doesn't only "preach to the choir".[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 07:39, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::I just read DMorris' addition to the GrammarCommie article indicating that GrammarCommie said he spent time in prison. If true, that kind of surprised me given that he is a bit of a very, low-level intellectual (college-educated people probably have lower incarceration rates), but I guess it should not. For one, he said he was lower middle class. People in that income bracket can't hire the type of lawyers that OJ Simpson did for his murder trial. And when a person is aggressive and has mental illness issues, they are more likely to have problems with the law. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 07:52, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::I'm sure you have more spare time than I do, see if you can find the edit in which he said that he was in prison. I think it was in the Saloon Bar but I can't remember. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 08:00, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::Conservative, I'm going to add, these people are all losers, they may make outlandish claims of being some productive member of society, but the reality is they wouldn't have time to invest in a rat nest if they were. Gooniepunk has admitted that he was a homeless hobo when he was active, GrammarCommie has admitted that he has a prison record and mental illness, Oxyaena admitted to having such severe mental illness that he could not function without his meds, Blue and Bigs have both admitted that they were ignorant teenagers when they were active, CheckUser evidence from this site has revealed that several of the socks from RW I have blocked have been from high school or college students... The ones that are school age are almost certainly the outcast type because someone with friends wouldn't waste their high school days on an obscure wiki that really doesn't even meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines (it's bad enough that I spent so much time on Wikipedia, but at least people actually use Wikipedia and it was something cool to talk about with friends, unlike the rat nest). Anyone can go on an open wiki as an anonymous user and claim to be a doctor, a lawyer, an academic, an astronaut, Brad Pitt, Donald Trump, OJ Simpson, Joe Biden, Tom Brady, etc. but that doesn't make it true. The one's on there who actually have a life are inactive ones who used to not have a life. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 08:12, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::::Actually, I am switching gears. I have a meeting on Monday where I have to get some work done before the meeting. In addition, although I am an ex-Protestant, I am going to be practicing the "Protestant work ethic" and upping my work hours to about 70 hours a week if you include my time to study work-related things. In addition, post breaking my leg, I am instituting aerobics and calisthenics to get back to the level of fitness when I was involved in the martial arts. And I am also upping my Bible study regimen. And post-COVID pandemic in my country, I am deepening and expanding my social ties.
 
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:::::In short, I am going to be a mean, lean, Bible-believing, hardworking, socially active machine! [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 08:16, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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Actually, I know of a formerly actively RW editor who is successful in his professional life and appears to be successful in his personal life. My guess is that his level of success is partly due to his family background. I will not go into the details, but suffice it to say you can't make categorical statements about their entire realm of RW editors, but merely generalizations. They do seem to have a lot of mental illness and dysfunction among their editor base though.{{Unsigned|User:Conservative}}
 
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:::::::Notice you said formerly active... For that matter Keegscee is married with a kid now and has a job as a software engineer. That wasn't the case when he was active. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 08:27, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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===Digression on ex-Protestantism===
 
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::::::(ec)You're an ex-protestant? As in now you are Catholic? Or are you a Baptist brider like me? When I was in high school and very active on wikis, I knew everybody in school and was kind of one of the popular kids (the people I still talk with include but is not limited to the class president, the prom queen, and the cheerleaders if that gives you an idea), but I was also extremely shy outside of school. The minute the bell rang I went home and stayed home; I would talk on MySpace and Facebook but I didn't even call or text friends really, despite having people's numbers. Now I'm heavily involved in politics, church, and The Gideons International, in addition to work at a public school, the responsibilities of home ownership, and college once I start taking classes again (I have an associate degree in business from Liberty, going to go for bachelors in business with a minor in Bible from Maranatha Baptist). [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 08:26, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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I attend church at a form of [[high church]] Christianity. It is not Roman Catholic, but it is catholic in the sense of being catholic with a small c (see: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term) Cathlic - term]). I would say that the church considers itself to practice historical Christianity in terms of descending from the main trunk of the historical Christianity tree.
 
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If you look at the below diagram, the early portion in black is the type of Christianity the early church practiced. In other words, the main trunk of the historical Christianity tree.
 
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[[File:Branches of Christianity.jpg|center|1000px]]
 
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For example, be sure to read this article: [https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/what-was-a-church-service-like-in-the-second-century/ What Was a Church Service Like in the Second Century?] (Mass/service lasted 3 hours and congregants stood most of the service)
 
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If you read that article, you will see that the early church practiced 11 things during the church services including the Eucharist (Lord's supper).
 
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Too many Christian churches don't incorporate the Lord's supper weekly. Plus, they don't give their members a full theology via covering the whole Bible. Instead many have a "Johnny come lately theology" that deviates a lot from the early church's theology.
 
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There are churches in some countries that have a 3-hour church service (Some Indian Oriental Orthodox Churches for example). Unfortunately, my church does not due to being somewhat Americanized.  Very few American church services last 3 hours. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 08:52, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:All I'm going to say is there's a lot of debate as to what the early church was really like. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 08:59, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::There are a lot of poor debaters who are intellectually lazy and haven't done their homework. And unfortunately, some of the more informed people are not consistent and are intellectually dishonest. This is a shame because the Bible says to love God with your heart, soul and mind (Matthew 22:36-40). It is sad that many people leave out the mind part and are intellectually shallow. It is often said that Americans are often anti-intellectual. And there are a lot of forms of Christianity sprang out of the USA. For example, I briefly attended a church where it seems that most of the members thought that man's nature was basically good (We played some kind of card game where the question was asked if men were basically good or bad). The Bible teaches the sinfulness of men without Christ (Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 7:11) and that Christians will have to battle sin and wrestle with it (The Apostle Paul did in his life). So the idea that most men are basically good is anti-biblical.
 
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::Speaking of Oriental Orthodox churches, listen to the beautiful music of these Ethiopian Oriental Orthodox believers: [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0754F048D18C7E9E Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church songs]. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 09:10, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::I find the Russian Orthodox church to be interesting. The most important thing is where people put their faith. Many put it in baptism, church attendance, good works, or other things that fall short of God's glory. It's faith in Jesus Christ that gets us to heaven, the other stuff should be a by-product of that faith, but that by-product isn't what gets us to Heaven, Jesus is. http://lakehillsbaptist.org/2018/05/03/romans-road-to-salvation/ (That is not my church, First Baptist of North Port is). [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 09:19, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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Faith is important. And works and holiness are important. The Epistle of James says, "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). Also, there is '''“You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24)'''. And there is: "You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless. Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did." (James 2: 20-22).  Hebrews 12:14 indicates: "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 09:35, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:I studied the issue of faith/works with with the help of a fellow Conservapedian. I changed my view somewhat. Like I refined my view.
 
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:Here are some excellent articles:
 
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:*[https://www.theologyofwork.org/new-testament/general-epistles/james-faith-works/faith-and-works-james-214-26/ Faith and Work(s) (James 2:14–26)]
 
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:*[https://www.bibleref.com/James/2/James-2-24.html What does James 2:24 mean?]
 
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:*[https://www.crossway.org/articles/are-we-justified-by-grace-or-by-works/ What Does It Mean that We’re “Justified By Works”? (James 2)] [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 10:07, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::I don’t disagree that works are important, but there is a fine line between those whose works are a reflection of their faith and those who think that their works are going to save them. You’re not going to get to Heaven just by giving up booze, ceasing to be mean to the neighborhood kids for no reason, or feeding homeless people, but a truly saved person should already know they’re going to Heaven no matter what they do but still want to do those things. I could go on a murderous rampage and kill a few thousand people and still go to Heaven, the thing is I don’t WANT to do that. And even when I backslide and start doing things I should not, I feel conviction for it, I think “hey I really should stop doing this” not because I think I’m going to Hell if I don’t but because I don’t want to disappoint my Lord and Savior. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 10:25, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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Unfortunately, you do disagree.
 
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In Christian theology, justification is the event/process by which sinners are made to be righteous in the sight of God (Cross, Frank Leslie; Livingstone, Elizabeth A. (2005). The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church. Oxford University Press. p. 914. ISBN 978-0-19-280290-3).
 
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There is '''“You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24)'''.
 
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The bolded passage above indicates that the justification process involves works. And James 2: 20-22 indicates that works can help complete faith. And James 2:26 says that faith without works is dead. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 10:35, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:A fellow Conservapedian just sent me a message as he is watching our exchange. He wrote: "Independent Baptists adhere to a really bizarre theology on salvation...it's called "free grace theology". It's crazy to even attempt to justify."
 
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:Bad theology produces bad fruit. Jesus taught that good trees produce good fruit and bad trees produce bad fruit.
 
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::"Pastors in independent fundamental Baptist churches have for the first time admitted they shuffled suspected abusers among churches and universities rather than call law enforcement.
 
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::It's according to an eight-month investigation by the Fort Worth Star-Telegram that includes first-hand accounts from former church members.
 
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::The report reveals 186 church leaders in the denomination were accused or convicted of committing sexual crimes against children, and at least 45 of the alleged abusers continued in ministry —  including in Tennessee —  after accusations came to the attention of church authorities or law enforcement."[https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/religion/2018/12/09/accused-abusers-kept-hidden-baptist-churches/2257095002/#:~:text=The%20report%20reveals%20186%20church,church%20authorities%20or%20law%20enforcement.]
 
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:Churches that neglect the importance of good works and holiness do so at their peril and the peril of their congregants. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 10:43, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::e/cI only put faith in the King James scriptures and others based on the Textus Receptus, but I don’t see how rejecting the notion that people who think doing grand things to cancel out their sins is rejecting the idea that works are important. We all sin, to be blunt about it you’re not saved and going to Hell if you believe otherwise (1 John 1:10). Putting your faith in yourself thinking that’s how you come to Christ is backwards, you come to Christ first and as you grow with Him and your love for Him supersedes your love for sin. You’ll stumble because we still live in the flesh, but conviction will come and you’ll come back to God (that’s why he chastens his children). The other side of this is the easy believism crowd, the ones who think they can recite a prayer they don’t mean in their heart one time or go to confessional every week meanwhile they continue to drink whiskey and shoot heroin all day long, beat their multiple wives, make babies with their daughters, kick dogs, and rape women in the grocery store parking lot and all is well, and I have news for them they are full of baloney. The change in works is not a matter of putting forth effort, it’s a matter of a change of heart.
 
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::I’m pretty set in my ways and nobody on the internet is going to change my mind. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 10:47, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::I don't see any point in having a discussion with someone who says "I’m pretty set in my ways and nobody on the internet is going to change my mind."
 
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:::You are saying that no amount of evidence or sound arguments are going to change your mind. Being stubborn, closed-minded, stiff-necked is not a virtue. It is a vice. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 10:52, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::::Thanks for taking the hint that I’m not looking for a debate on this matter at the moment. 😉When one has truth faith in The Lord, one uses discernment in who they allow to persuade them in another direction. If God or his word leads me in another direction then I accept his holy will, but some random person on the internet I don’t really know and who I know I’m the not so distant past was promoting the charismatic movement I shall put my guard up against the same as I would a Jehovah’s Witness at my doorstep. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 11:06, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::::I am looking into the faith/works issue more. I think I may have to understand the Greek better, do more Bible exegesis, etc. There does seem to be a tension between James 2:24 and Ephesians 2:8-9. I think a better understanding is possible. But in a proverbial sense, some nuts are harder to crack than others. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 21:43, September 19, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::::::Okay, buttercup. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 06:28, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
 
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Jesus Christ said: "Store your Treasures in Heaven" (Luk 12:33). After confessing our sins and being justified by Grace (1 Jn 1:9), we must then do Good Works and strive for Holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14). That's how you store your Treasures in Heaven, the Lord is there speaking of Good Works especially like Prayer, Fasting and Almsgiving, as the Gospel passages make clear. Good works are extremely, you can't read the Beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount, and come away thinking disciples of Christ aren't called, commanded and bound to do Good Works, which also help us grow in Grace after coming to faith. In 1 Cor 3:13-15, it speaks of two categories of believers, one those who worked well, and thus receive a Reward from the Lord; the other, who are subject to the Lord's discipline for bad works or sins. "each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward." (1 Cor 3). In 2 Pet 1, similarly, two sets of Christians are distinguished. One who neglect sanctification, others who will receive a Rich Reward in the Kingdom of Heaven: "2 Pet 1: Confirming One’s Calling and Election
 
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3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
 
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5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
 
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10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 12:03, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:Well said. Does "self-control" mean not [[spam]]ming talk pages with reams and reams of off topic text and external links? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 12:08, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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Good Works include supporting Good Christian Conservative Candidates with Good Family Values, lest what Plato said come about through indifference: "The Price that Good Men pay for indifference to Public Affairs is to be ruled over by Evil Men". I'm interested in winning the Culture War once and for all and not having it drag on for another 50-60 years, hence I support DeSantis etc. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 12:22, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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[[File:I'm not listening.gif|thumb|I really don't want to have a discussion with someone who says they are set in their ways and would never change their mind about something.  And I didn't see you really addressing what I wrote. So continued discussion would be like talking to a brick wall. And I have no interest in doing that.<br/ ><br>See also [[Conservapedia:Essays]]: [[Essay: Does ignorance, stubbornness, and stupidity define conservativism?]] ]]
 
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:Actually, I'm asking about this passage: ''"make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control;"''  does "self control" mean not spamming talk page discussions with reams and ream of off-topic, [[narcissistic]] self interest, thereby disrespecting other editors? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 13:10, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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I'm sorry if I come across too bluntly (I guess years of service industry work and involvement in politics will do that to a person), but the main reason I don't like getting into debates with people of other denominations is I find that fellow Christians spend hours upon hours beating each other up over trivial differences of interpretation of God's word and unless I'm debating lost person whose doctrinal beliefs are completely off the rails (picture someone in a cult that identifies as "Christian" or one of those people who wear a cross but say things like "I don't need church, and Jesus drank wine so I can drink beer all day long") the in-fighting is just a distraction from what we really need to be doing, which is reaching the lost. Case in point, we could go on and on about grace vs. works, but is the disagreement really that great? I believe in Lordship Salvation, and that faith and repentance go hand and hand, repentance doesn't mean perfection, but it does mean one should put the bottle down, quit the job that requires them to lie to people, stop shoplifting from Winn-Dixie, etc. Can one truthfully say they put their faith in God and that he is the all powerful creator of the universe and continue these things they know he does not approve of, knowing that he could strike them dead for that if he wanted to? Another example of unnecessary bickering is when you take a hard-nosed Baptist vs. a hard-nosed follower of the Restoration Movement (Church of Christ, Christian Church, Campbellite, etc), the former will say that baptism is just a ritual, the latter will say it is required for salvation, and while the thief on the cross debunks any claim that one absolutely has to get baptized to be saved, can one truly be a saved person and not want to follow God's command to get baptized? Then you have issues like predestination, doctrines which are important, but not crucial to one's salvation. What I mean by that is if I get to Heaven and find out I was wrong about predestination, I can accept that, whereas if I wake up in Hell after death and see the 9/11 hijackers rejoicing in my torment because I was wrong and they were right, that's not okay (however, I'm convinced that the Muslim 9/11 perpetrators were NOT in the right). I hope this explanation helps. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] ([[User talk:DMorris|talk]]) 14:25, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:I really don't want to have a discussion with someone who says they are set in their ways and would never change their mind about something.  And I didn't see you really addressing what I wrote. So continued discussion would be like talking to a brick wall. And I have no interest in doing that.[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 14:47, September 16, 2023 (EDT)
 
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::Well congrats. It's been 48 hours now and your rude tone chased away another good faith editor. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 21:02, September 19, 2023 (EDT)
 
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:::Man, this debate looks interesting. I, of course, would probably differ with everyone by arguing that standard Eucharistic traditions are of pagan origin, as is the celebration of Easter, Christmas, and weekly worship on the first day of the week. Sunday is short for "day of the sun," and Sunday worship is rooted in sun worship. Christians are instead called to worship the sun... of righteousness. —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>Rev. 22:13</sup>]]''''' Wednesday, 21:06, September 19, 2023 (EDT)
 
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==Bad faith editing==
 
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Contacting me by phone, email and on my talk page to tell me about some sordid relationship between an undertaker-preacher friend and User:Conservative and a third person who may or may not identify as "she" or "he", and how this is vital to restoring CP's Google traffic, then emailing me and allegedly Andy about it, is not gossip. It is [[bad faith editing]] and [[trolling]]. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 19:17, September 21, 2023 (EDT)
 

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Conservapedia talk:User complaints/Archives

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